that keep saying Europe is better than us?

Sure, I've heard that they are doing some specific things better than us (mainly healthcare). The assumption behind that assertion has always been that they are not better than us at all, and that we should be able to do better then them.

Totally. Admitting that European countries *might* have some good ideas on certain things isn't the same as saying they're better. I'm a huge fan of pizza, doesn't mean I think Italy's the Best Country Eva.

When fabulously wealthy and privledged Hollywood actors perennially pledge, come every presidential election, that they will bolt to France or Canada or wherever if their candidate doesn't win, that doesn't help with the image of liberals.

I mean, if Sharon Stone is going to move to France if John McCain makes the White House, as she has stated, how patriotic is she? Certainly she can't believe this act of "protest" will mean anything in terms of changing the country from the course he would set. Certainly her quality of life is not going to measurably change by moving elsewhere.

Unfortunately, high profile liberals like Hollywood actors tar the average liberal as much as a high profile Jerry Falwell tars average conservatives.

Is their loyalty to the country that fungible, so paper thin? I asked a liberal on this Fray, who stated that he is patriotic and then launched into a long list of all things he doesn't like about his country, to simply list a few things he did love.

Among them were the people he knew here; the US National Parks and a few other things that could go away tomorrow. Sounds like a nice place to shop, and should those things change his patriotism would diminish in a heartbeat.

That's the kind of "liberal" you're asking about. Not the kind of guy I expect to be around when the chips are down.

Sorry guys, sure there must be an ability to criticize one's own country. Dissent is patriotic and all that. Let's not even have that obvious discussion. But there is an aspect of loyalty to country - not government - which is unconditional or at least close to that, which is the essence of patriotism.

Earlybird,

I think you are actually talking about my quick short list of things i love about the country. It was someone else that started that thread though. That was my quick and short list, certainly not not a definitive one. Also, there are other things that I would have said 8 years ago, but can't honestly say now (free and fair trial for all).

Anyway, thats a all a digression from the main topic here. Personally I don't know who appointed Sharon Stone as representative of liberals, although obviously she gets to use her fame to act as if she is. Still, your right about the self defeating and childish nature of the threats to move away. Those aren't patriotic or attractive.

On the other hand, thats not her saying "Europe is just inherently so much better than us". I've seen numerous conservatives on this board stating unequivocally that liberals all worship Europe and want to emulate them in every way. So, I'm calling for any of them to show me some of these liberals taking this position.

Regards,

Blueshift

The beautiful thing about America is that even a no talent hack like Sharon Stone can speak her mind.

The real problem that liberals have is that they've let the right dictate who their spokespeople are. Meanwhile, McCain is running around kissing the rings of looney tunes like Hagee and yet the right pretends that he's not representative of their views.

If anyone can tell me when Obama sought out Sharon Stone's endorsement, please tell me.

I do not believe that Obama, my preferred candidate this election season, did ask for Sharon Stone's endorsment.

I mentioned her as an example of the albatross lefties have, fairly or unfairly, around their neck as it pertains to their image as patriots.

Another problem they have is that, being so turned off by what they perceive as jingoistic patriotism by the right, the left has rejected patriotism to a great degree. It seems any unabashedly positive expression about one's country is "dangerous" or naive, or sheep-like following of some quaint notion of a Perfect America.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, patrotism is an emotion, not an intellectual pursuit. The vital act of national self criticism, especially as it pertains to government, is hugely important and related to patriotism, but is not patriotism itself. The left often confuses this with patriotism.

There is a bumper that reads, "Dissent is patriotic." Really? All dissent? "Damn the USA to hell!" is certainly dissent, but hardly patriotic.

There seems to be a sense on the left that one can not praise one's country, especially the US, without loading that praise with all sorts of caveats and "...buts..." That's a shame. So any kind of patriotic expression, when uttered by the left, at best comes off grudging, half-hearted and mealy mouthed.

I just want to know who nominated Sharon Stone the official spokesperson of the left.

That's that problem I have with this debate. People point to an idiot actor and say, "See! All liberals think like her!" But then they get offended when someone turns around and says, "Do you agree with Hagee that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon?"

As I've said before, patriotism has to be more than unquestioning nationalism. If the ideals of this country mean anything, a true patriot should stand up and fight for them. Especially if the ones trying to undermine those values are cloaked in the official government authority. Just because someone waves a flag and wears a pin, doesn't mean they're a patriot. In fact, the ones who push for such obvious outward signs of nationalism, should be viewed with the most suspicion.

'If the ideals of this country mean anything, a true patriot should stand up and fight for them. Especially if the ones trying to undermine those values are cloaked in the official government authority.'

you got it!! this country was founded by disgruntled taxpayers. it would serve you lib/dems/tit sucking/complainers well to remember that.

"Just because someone waves a flag and wears a pin, doesn't mean they're a patriot."

Of course not! But a genuine, heart felt expression of love for one's country is in fact patriotism. Such an expression does not have to be wrapped up in layers of criticism for it to be palatable or thoughtful or healthy.

Frenchmen say "Vive la France!" Mexicans say "Viva Mexico!" and so forth. Is that scary too? Is that jingoistic or sheeplike or ugly in some way?

Look. We can and should have both: healthy criticism of our country when necessary, and true expressions of patriotism. They do not have to be at odds with one another. You can be a screaming anti-Bush or anti-whatever, still recognize the many faults the US has, and still sing the Star Spangled Banner with something like a sense of patriotism.

It's a shame that so many lefties feel embarrassed or worse about any outward forms of patriotic feeling. In fact, that's as unhealthy as some imagined Uber-American. We can't survive without healthy self-criticism and we can't survive with relentless self-loathing either.

I'm not embarrassed by any outward expressions of patriotism. I'm just tired of people measuring patriotism by who makes the most number of such gestures.

Can we do an experiment, GreatBear? Will you think of something about the United States that you love, and see if you can just state your love of that thing in a simple declarative sentence, with no, "But..." attached to it? Just a plain ol' "I love X about the United States," or "I am grateful for X about the United States"?

Let's see if you can do that. I honestly can't think of the last time I have heard a self-styled liberal be able to unabashedly do that. It's always a lead-in to a criticism.

I love that this country protects the freedom of speech for everyone, even those who express unpopular or stupid opinions (see irvingchang).

I love that this is the country where I was born, where my family lives and that I don't live in fear of being "ethnically cleansed" because of something my great-great-great-great-great-­grandfather did.

I love that this country can do anything when we part out minds together as proven by the development of things like the internet and the Apollo missions to the moon.

I love that in this country, I am free to worship or not worship as I choose.

I love that America is an ongoing experiment as to what it exactly is means to be a free society.

I love that we are a prosperous society so that no one in my family will ever no what it is like to go to bed hungry and that our biggest food production problem is what to do with our surplus crops.

I love that I have the freedom to define for myself what patriotism means to me rather than have it dictated to me.

Is that enough for you?

No smart ass remarks to my list huh?

I took your challenge and ran with it.

Of course, if there were any neocons who actually loved this country for its ideals instead of a source to siphon money out of the pockets of the taxpayers, I'd be worried.

Oh, and if I'm still not patriotic enough for your standards, please feel free to accept a nice hot cup of go fuck yourself.

'I love that this country protects the freedom of speech for everyone, even those who express unpopular or stupid opinions (see irvingchang).'

for everyone except college kids who may say something that offends me when you and your traveling mates instituted campus speech codes. or anti abortionists who display pictures of dead fetus in trash cans. you hate that. or god forbid, a high school in texas somewhere says a prayer at a friday night football game and them you have a coniption. or if larry summers says something that is common knowledge and send you guys into the vapors. or is some guy humors an old man at a party and waxes about the past. he should have his head cut off.

'I love that this is the country where I was born, where my family lives and that I don't live in fear of being "ethnically cleansed" because of something my great-great-great-great-great-​grandfather did.'

not ethically, but if you and yours have your way, my bank account will be cleansed of money in the from of reparations.

'I love that this country can do anything when we part out minds together as proven by the development of things like the internet and the Apollo missions to the moon.'

me too.

'I love that in this country, I am free to worship or not worship as I choose.'

liberals believe you can be any religion you wish as long as you don't practice it.

'I love that America is an ongoing experiment as to what it exactly is means to be a free society.'

yeah. that living breathing constitution thingie.

'I love that we are a prosperous society so that no one in my family will ever no what it is like to go to bed hungry and that our biggest food production problem is what to do with our surplus crops.'

man you are lucky! i've been so poor i've gone to bed hungry many many times.

'I love that I have the freedom to define for myself what patriotism means to me rather than have it dictated to me.'

words have meanings. patriotism has a meaning. i suggest you look it up and not have it mean anything you friggen want it to like you do the constitution.