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Convenience of guns
by sjalterego
+2 Reply

Come on Mr. Noah. That is some weak sauce.

If you are disappointed in the S.Ct. decision so be it. The 2A is slightly ambiguous, both in text and history and the S.Ct.'s historic reluctance to squarely address it has only allowed that ambiguity to increase over time which local, state and federal government's exploited to restrict the right to keep and bear arms, in some cases excessively so.

However, throwing a hissy fit and claiming that the decision boils down to the S.Ct. having discovered "a constitutional right to convenience" is just plain silly.

Please tell me how you plan to go about proving your "point [] that a handgun's convenience when put to good uses is heavily outweighed by its convenience when put to bad ones."

There is certainly a lot of evidence about handgun's "bad" uses. However, you have to admit that despite the inherent difficulty of tracking down the positive uses of a handgun [perhaps merely brandishing it to prevent a crime] that there are many instances when the convenience of a handgun has been put to bad uses.

Moreover, why do you even feel the need to make this balance. In the First Amendment context I would posit that the vast amount of Free Speach we experience is essentially vapid, worthless crap [I'm thinking of all the bad pop songs, the stupid sitcoms, the infotainment focus on celebrity etc.]. Even if we wanted to, how do you balance the negative effects of free speech against the positive effect of free speech? In general, the answer is that we don't even try. We as a society take it as an article of faith that the answer to negative speech is more free speech, not more restrictions. Even in the instances were it is demonstrable that free speech has negative consequences.

The barrel can be used to break a snitch's jaw. (There's no such thing as "rifle whipping.")

Of course there is. Haven't you ever seen a movie/tv show where a person uses a rifle as a club (not even going to address a rifle with a bayonet attached). Don't you remember seeing Davy Crockett in the Alamo going down with one last swing of his rifle. They actually train the use of rifle buttstocks as weapons in the armed forces and in private security/self-defense classes. I do not believe that any responsible organization teaches the use of a pistol as a club.

If it's easier for a woman to handle (I presume that's the meaning of Scalia's gallant reference to upper-body strength), imagine how much easier it is for a 4-year-old child.

The number of accidental child/toddler accidents involving firearms/handguns every year is actually quite small. Granted, every such accident is tragic but statistically speaking it is NOT a problem. Furthermore, one can craft laws imposing penalties on adults for negligently storing such weapons within easy reach of children. Many more children die each year drowing in personal pools than of handgun related accidents. Yet society essentially thinks that is a problem to be handles by civil litigation and some minor requirements that pools be fenced. Why should handguns which present a much smaller problem be treated so differently?

Granted, in jurisdictions where gun ownership is permitted, criminals seldom obtain their guns legally. But illegal guns begin life as legal ones. . . . More legal guns therefore mean more illegal guns. More illegal guns mean more people get killed.

How is this true? The "illegal" gun market is already saturated. Absent a complete ban on handguns [is that what you actually want? if so just come right out and say so] criminals will always be able to get their hands on guns. Absent such a draconian restriction gun laws such as DC's only operate to disarm the law abiding. How exactly did DC's gun law, while it was valid, succeed? The empirical evidence is very strongly in favor of the conclusion that DC's gun laws did little to nothing to disarm criminals but certainly succeeded in disarming the law abiding or making criminals out of those who were otherwise law abiding citizens.

Moreover, how do you reach the conclusion that "more illegal guns mean more people get killed." You are assuming that if criminals were deprived of access to guns they would cease all murderous violence. I certainly grant that if we could elliminate ALL possession of firearms by the criminally inclined that we would probably see a slight decline in overall unlawful homicide. However, much [I believe most] criminal violence would simply be shifted to a substitute. This would then lead to legislation banning swords and knives etc. Don't laugh, it is already happening in England.

The inconvenience this poses to the dead and their families, and to society at large, does not concern Scalia.

First, you purposefully constructed this sentence to denigrate Scalia's humanity and not his legal thinking. How do you know he doesn't have personal anguish about the "dead and their families and society at large"?

Second, why should it matter when it is a matter of legal principle. Assuming you support a woman's right to have an abortion are you "concerned" about the inconvenience suffered by the aborted fetus? At the extreme range it cannot be denied that a fetus can suffer pain and might even be a viable life. Assuming you support free speech, are you "concerned" about the the inconvenience suffered by Valerie Plame when she was outed and which would not have occurred if the journalists who disclosed this information were afraid of prosecution. Are you concerned about the feelings of the defamed and the humiliated who are held up for ridicule by the press and who have no recourse due to First Amendement protections. Do you want Justice Scalia to be concerned about such things and to therefore limit what you can publish or do you want him to be unconcerned b/c it is a matter of legal principle?

Re: Convenience of guns
by sjalterego

In paragraph 5 I meant to say

". . . that there are many instances when the convenience of a handgun has been put to good uses."

Re: Convenience of guns
by TheRaven
Great post.
Re: Convenience of guns
by keriamon

All of the conveniences of a handgun can be applied to knives as well. Shall we ban butcher knives because criminals use them to commit crimes? Look how many people died because some a-holes had box cutters. Box cutters!

Criminals will commit crime with whatever is handy to them. No pistol to pop someone in the jaw with? Here's a baseball bat or a metal pipe or a tire iron. Some people (like me) would even say shoot me any day over clubbing me to death or stabbing me multiple times.

The Republic of Ireland has no guns of any kind. Only the military are allowed to carry them. And yet Cork is (or at least used to be) known as "stab city." The criminals there managed to commit plenty of crime with knives. People died or were terribly disfigured.

Personally, I don't care if criminals kill each other. That's evolution at its best. I only care when they try to commit crimes against me and other non-criminal people, at which point I like having the ability to take them out of the food chain myself. Yes, I could stab or beat them to death instead, but I'm much more likely to get hurt and it's messy business that. Let me shoot once in the center body mass and be done with it.

And the thing that makes a handgun conceable for a criminal also lets me conceal it from criminals. You better believe when I was out changing the tire on my car, I had my handgun just out of sight, but where I could grab it if anyone try to bother me. I have a... wait for it... conceled carry permit. I'm allowed to hide a handgun from you and everyone else. Which means just as a criminal with an illegal gun can whip it out to point at a police officer, so I can whip one out and point it at someone committing a crime.

Stastics show that were more people legally own a gun, there is less crime overall. That's because most criminals are afraid of getting shot. Anyone with any sense would never attempt to rob any of the houses on our road because I think everybody on our road owns a gun. Certainly more people than just us go out and practice with them. My husband had someone come to his house once in 18 years that started poking around his garage. He greeted them from the front porch with a rifle and they left. Never had anyone touch anything in or around our house ever again.

And the author assumes, for some reason, that handguns are more deadly than long-barreled guns. I suggest the author take a 12-gauge shotgun with buckshot in it and a 9mm Glock to a firing range and shoot both from the same distance. A shotgun is much more lethal at close range than a handgun. I put 8 or 9 rounds of buckshot through one and the target stand, which had born out so long from other forms of fire, was totally annihilated. If I had hit a man in the chest with that thing just once, he'd likely have no heart left in it. Even if you look at just rifles, no shotguns, almost all of our rifles are a larger caliber than our handguns and many are more powerful. In short, they're more deadly than a handgun. They can also be fired with similar deadliness from much further away. As the DC sniper proved. No handgun needed for him. No need to ditch the gun either, not when you are so far away no one can spot you.

If you took all the guns, handguns or otherwise, away from law-abiding citizens, then only criminals would have guns. And then what do I do if they break into my house? I'd be bringing a knife to a gun fight and that would suck a lot. DC has illustrated that gun crime does not diminish when guns are outlawed. Maybe now the people in DC will start shooting back and take the stupid criminals out of the gene pool and leave the smart ones to commit safe crimes, like identity theft and Nigerian scams.

Re: Convenience of guns
by bmgreene
sjalterego:

Granted, in jurisdictions where gun ownership is permitted, criminals seldom obtain their guns legally. But illegal guns begin life as legal ones. . . . More legal guns therefore mean more illegal guns. More illegal guns mean more people get killed.

How is this true? The "illegal" gun market is already saturated. Absent a complete ban on handguns [is that what you actually want? if so just come right out and say so] criminals will always be able to get their hands on guns. Absent such a draconian restriction gun laws such as DC's only operate to disarm the law abiding. How exactly did DC's gun law, while it was valid, succeed? The empirical evidence is very strongly in favor of the conclusion that DC's gun laws did little to nothing to disarm criminals but certainly succeeded in disarming the law abiding or making criminals out of those who were otherwise law abiding citizens.

Even an all-out nationwide ban on handguns doesn't guarantee anything beyond a drastic increase in prices and a surge in profits for illegal dealers and smugglers. I'm not aware of anywhere on the planet where processed cocaine is still legal in any form (it's definitely illegal everywhere on this continent and has been for many years), and yet the stuff is produced and distributed in huge quantities every year, and is available in the USA to virtually everyone who wants it. Good luck achieving better results with total prohibition of anything that'll still be legal to produce and use in other countries, and will continue to be used by various government agencies here....

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