I remember this anti-drug public service announcement being on TV when I was little, that showed a bunch of kids saying what they wanted to be when they grew up. The spot ended with a voice saying, "No-one ever says, 'I want to be a junkie when I grow up.'" (Of course, a lot kids at school started saying that just to be cute, but I digress.)

When I read the argument "Why would anyone choose to be gay?" I think of that public-service spot. Really, why would anyone choose to be cosumed by drugs or alcohol until they wind up a wreck of their former selves? Now, you could say that it's hereditary, that such victims have "addictive personalities", or issues that drove them to turn to substance abuse as an escape from their problems, but that doesn't change the fact that they weren't force-fed the substances, they took them of their own accord. Granted, I'm sure addicts don't say to themselves one morning, "I think I'll become a washed-up druggie," it generally starts with, "Oh, one time couln't hurt," then "It makes me feel good, helps me unwind," and "I can quit whenever I want". Then it progresses to "I need this stuff! I can't give it up!" and on to "I can't help it, it's who I am". Eventually it gets beyond control, but it accumulates through a serious of choices. Those choices may have strong motivations behind them, and be influenced by many factors, but they are still choices.

It seems to me that we as a society are getting into the habit of excusing just about every abnormal behavior with some medical or psychological diagnosis. We've gone from "The devil made me do it", to "Alcohol/drugs made me do it", "My bad childhood made me do it", "My body chemistry/genes made me do it", "The bullies in my life made me do it" etc. etc. At what point are we supposed to take responsibility for our own actions?

Regarding homosexuality as a lifestyle choice, I would say that the homosexual culture we see now is a lifestyle choice which homosexuals can take or leave, just as the "gangsta" culture is a lifestyle choice that blacks can take or leave.

Now, this doesn't mean I think that homosexuals deserve to be beat up or called names or even preached to...but I do think that homosexuals can't expect the rest of us to validate their choices if we don't want to.

Yes, you can't help being homosexual. A gay person can choose to not have sex with people of the same gender, but that doesn't change their inherent sexual attraction to people of the same gender. A person with an addictive personality can choose to not take drugs and have an essentially happy and healthy life. A person who is gay can't choose to not be gay and find happiness with someone of the opposite sex.

I agree with you that too many people don't take responsibility for their choices. But being attracted to the same sex isn't a choice, any more than you chose to be straight. You were born that way. Speaking for myself, I've been gay as long as I can remember. I was aware of being different well before I fully understood what it meant. It's simply not the same as choosing to be a gansta, or a member of a country club, or choosing to be a Republican or Democrat. I tried dating women, and the reality is it didn't work for me. It's not because I didn't find "the right woman"; I just wasn't interested in women.

Many years ago, teachers tried to force left-handed students to write with their right hands. It didn't work, and they eventually realized it had an adverse effect on the kids. It would be like you attempting to live life as a homosexual (I know you would never actually do that, but humor me). Your natural inclinations are towards the opposite sex. No matter how hard you try, you couldn't force yourself to be attracted to your own gender. It simply wouldn't feel natural to you. My natural inclinations are for men. As for the "lifestyle", the only difference between my lifestyle and a straight one really is the fact that I married a man (in Canada). I'm in a committed relationship (7 years), I have a good job, I don't drink or smoke, and I have friends both gay and straight.

I realize you don't have to approve of me or my life. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But the only choice I made was to make the most of the hand that was dealt me. I take responsibility for being a decent and upstanding human being, and I'm truly glad I was born this way. I wouldn't trade my life for anything, and my Christian parents have backed me up 110 percent.

No I don't think they can.

Can you really REALLY help not being heterosexual? I'm dead serious, could you ever see yourself banging a member of the same sex because you REALLY wanted to - but at the same time having sex or kissing or holding hands with a member of the opposite sex appalled you?

People, even those who associate with the gay culture, often confuse the term bi-sexual with homosexual. The two terms are radically different.

Look, you can't help who you find attractive sexually. That IS the basis of all gay, straight, and bi- sexuality.

If you are a man, and you think another man's erection is erotic..then you are HOMOSEXUAL.

If you are a man, and the idea of touching another man's erection makes you want to wretch..then you are HETEROSEXUAL.

If you are a woman, and you really want to play with another woman's breast..then you are HOMOSEXUAL.

If you are a woman, and the idea of fondling another woman's breasts creeps you out...then you are HETEROSEXUAL.

If you think you'd like to touch the naughtiest bits of both sexes...then you are BI-SEXUAL.

It reall is that simple. Not complicated at all. Seriously.

I had a gay roomate in college one year..and we spent ages together, were in classes together, and I started to get sort of a crush on him, he was nice, and smart, and cute. But I knew he was gay so I just didn't say anything.

One night we were out drinking and had gotten pretty lit, so I asked him how he knew he was gay and not bisexual.

His answer was the funniest and most conclusive thing I've ever heard...

"Oh I like women all right, I don't hate them or anything. I'm half in love with you..but women are just so squishy and round all over..it just grosses me out."

It really is that simple.

homosexuality is found in almost every species we look at including worms.

if it were a choice in humans it would have to be a choice for all animals including worms.

please explain to me the mechanism of how worms choose to be gay and how their brain can make such a complicated choice. Is it because they were inappropriately wriggled with by another male worm? did they see two male worms engage in sex and become confused?

Tell me how worms choose to be gay.

...the closest term would be bi-sexual, but even that is different from how it is applied to humans, because there are no male or female worms, all worms carry both male sperm and female eggs in their bodies. If you had examples of animals from male-and-female species that go against the grain and will only mate with members of their own gender, then you would have a case. I am aware there are animals that engage in homosexual behavior, but I am not aware of any animal being exclusively homosexual.

...but yes I actually think I could NOT be a heterosexual if I wanted to.

To give an example, consuming food stands alongside sexual pleasure as a basic primal need for living. Yet there are people who manage to train themselves to hate food, to override their desire for sustanence with the desire to stay thin. We call them anorexics. Now I have yet to hear or read anything that says anorexia is the result of genetics or body chemistry, (though some people do have smaller appetites than others), the understanding is that a person develops anorexia when they allow dieting to get out of control, when they decide they must be thin at all costs. Think of that for a second, a living thing training itself to override one of its most basic natural drives. If its possible to do that, how else can we condition our bodies and minds?

Going back to homosexuality, as I pointed out on my other reply in this thread, there are animals that engage in homosexual behavior, but there are none that I know of which only mate with members of their own gender. One can get sexual pleasure from anything that stimulates the reproductive parts, you really don't even need a partner. Our instincts on what makes a good sexual partner are a bit more discerning, but even those are less than exact. As I said before, I'm a hetersexual, so I'm more attracted to women than men, but a small part of me still notices when a man has a good body. If I had no sexual inhibitions to start with, and I developed the habit of pleasuring myself without involving a woman, that could cause me to associate sexual pleasure with maleness. Then I probably wouldn't be able to look at my male friends the same way, and if I found a male who shared my feelings and hooked up with him, then you could classify me as a homosexual.

Now, maybe that's not how every homosexual gets that way, but even with them, I wonder if it can't be made to go the other way as well.

I think a part of the communication problem occurring here is that you think it is a choice..and are perfectly willing to classify it as a mental illness..like anorexia in your desire to defend your viewpoint with any available argument no matter how rude. (BTW..so impolite)

But you have not experienced the subject firsthand..so your assumption that it is a choice, a bad one, and possibly a mental illness..

Is the same as my assuming that you are posting about homosexuality on a blog because you can't find a way to tell your mom you're gay..

Or my assuming that you are only heterosexual because although you find men sexually attractive, your abusive, heavily christian parents brain-washed you into believing that you would go to hell and so you cry yourself to sleep alone and hate gays..

All of them are just assumptions by someone with no evidence.

Anyone can "assume" anything about anyone else.That doesn't make the assumptions true, no matter how semantically convincing arguments in support of it sound.

I didn't mean to say that homosexuals are as foolish as anorexics. I used anorexia because it was the strongest example I could think of involving mind over body.

Also, I admitted at the end that my hypothetical scenario may not apply to every homosexual, but perhaps that that was too vague.

Ultimately the way I see it, if a homosexual feels that he/she cannot change, they shouldn't be forced to do so, and if they even want to engage in homosexual activity, I don't think they should be stopped as long as it is discreet. But I cannot in good conscience support and condone same-sex marriage. Sorry, that's just what I believe.

It's Ok for you to have your beliefs, and for me to have mine. That's the great thing about individuality :)

I think people who are out there in public defending gay people's rights are particulary touchy.

But if you've ever seen someone with their head kicked in because of someone else's "beliefs", you tend to get kinda militant about it.

And just so that maybe this will make it easier to understand..gay people think about "changing" their sexual preferences..about as often as you decide to really work hard and become gay.

I mean, it just doesn't happen. It's like deciding to change your eye color..

Thevail:

It's Ok for you to have your beliefs, and for me to have mine. That's the great thing about individuality :)

I think people who are out there in public defending gay people's rights are particulary touchy.

But if you've ever seen someone with their head kicked in because of someone else's "beliefs", you tend to get kinda militant about it.

And just so that maybe this will make it easier to understand..gay people think about "changing" their sexual preferences..about as often as you decide to really work hard and become gay.

I mean, it just doesn't happen. It's like deciding to change your eye color..

You mean changing from gay to straight? If that's the case, I find that surprising. I understand that many homosexuals claim they tried to change but couldn't.

I wonder...

What exactly do you think marriage has to do with genetics? The modern Western concept of marriage is based on cultural norms and Christianity. The idea was to create a stable unit that guaranteed all children the woman produced would "belong" to the man.

Now, if you want to object to gay marriage on the grounds that it goes against your religion, knock yourself out, I suppose. However, in that case, leave science out of it.

On the other hand, if you genuinely believe homosexuality is a genetic/mental disorder, what grounds do you have for objecting to them marrying? Do you object to schizophrenics, paraplegics, or anorexics getting married?

Science cannot make a moral value judgement.

By the way, here is a National Geographic article on pairbonding homosexual animals:

<link>

Freki

Freki:

I wonder...

What exactly do you think marriage has to do with genetics? The modern Western concept of marriage is based on cultural norms and Christianity. The idea was to create a stable unit that guaranteed all children the woman produced would "belong" to the man.

Just the modern Western concept? Virtually every human culture throughout history has some equivalent of the marriage institution, and most versions consist of one man marrying one woman. Plus, humans are by no means the only species to engage in monogamous relationships.

Now, if you want to object to gay marriage on the grounds that it goes against your religion, knock yourself out, I suppose. However, in that case, leave science out of it.

On the other hand, if you genuinely believe homosexuality is a genetic/mental disorder, what grounds do you have for objecting to them marrying? Do you object to schizophrenics, paraplegics, or anorexics getting married?

Schizophrenics: was Andrea Yates sane before she married her husband? Paraplegics: If they find a spouse that can live with their condition, I don't see why not. Anorexics: I hope their spouses don't marry them to "change" them because that virtually never works.

Science cannot make a moral value judgement.

Then homosexuals shouldn't use science to justify their position any more than Christians should use science to justify theirs.

By the way, here is a National Geographic article on pairbonding homosexual animals:

<link>

Good job on finding the article. However, did you notice these paragraphs?

"Yet scientists say we should be wary of referring to animals when considering what's acceptable in human society. For instance, infanticide, as practiced by lions and many other animals, isn't something people, gay or straight, generally approve of in humans."

"Another suggestion is that homosexuality is a developmental phase people go through. He said, 'This is similar to the argument of play in young animals to get their brain and muscles to work effectively and together. Off the back of this, there's the possibility you can get individuals locked into this phase for the rest of their lives as a result of the social environment they grow up in.'"