Hello, princess:

There's something between painting and astrophysics.

Namely the mind-numbingly dull, mid- (or even high-) level management jobs in banks, insurance agencies, law firms hospitals, government, airlines, etc.

The jobs that pay reasonably or even very well. The jobs that don't "fulfill" anything except mortgage obligations and the like.

E.g., your little doo-hickey job writing things for Slate.

Imagine if our culture indicated to girls that they must always have before them the prospect of supporting a spouse and family on a single income (theirs).

Or a single real income, supplemented by her spouse's occasional forays into the workforce or whatever he could scrape up from the rare sale of his paintings.

This would have been item #1 on the feminist agenda: equalize the financial responsibility of the family between spouses.

But no.

Our culture more/less requires boys to go into finance and medicine and law. It allows girls to do so but who takes it seriously?

When we all know, on some level, the girl can opt out of the work force.

Both with the support of the patriarchy.

And all the Sarah Lawrence graduates who pretend since they don't want to do brain surgery (altho they could!) they might as well throw pottery.

No wonder women can't get tenure-track positions in the hard sciences. Partner in law. The Presidency.

Women who seek "fulfillment" make it impossible for their sisters--who are perhaps less flakey--to break barriers.

Everyone assumes behind every strong and successful woman is someone who really would rather just stay home and bake cookies.

And whine.

Richmond:

Hello, princess:

There's something between painting and astrophysics.

Namely the mind-numbingly dull, mid- (or even high-) level management jobs in banks, insurance agencies, law firms hospitals, government, airlines, etc.

The jobs that pay reasonably or even very well. The jobs that don't "fulfill" anything except mortgage obligations and the like.

E.g., your little doo-hickey job writing things for Slate.

Imagine if our culture indicated to girls that they must always have before them the prospect of supporting a spouse and family on a single income (theirs).

Or a single real income, supplemented by her spouse's occasional forays into the workforce or whatever he could scrape up from the rare sale of his paintings.

um...

As a woman, no one as EVER suggested that I will EVER have an opportunity to not have a job. I have NEVER been led to believe that anyone will ever support me or pay for me to do or have anything. How old are you??? Since when is it assumed that men are the primary "bread winners" anymore? I think that's an idea men get into their heads that isn't true. As girls growing up in the 80s and 90s we were always taught that fending for ourselves was the numero uno priority, same as the boys.

I'm sorry but no one is telling girls they're going to be getting any free rides. In this day in age, no one even takes marriage as a given, and even for those who get married the pressure is still there to earn your share (and if it's not, it should be). Do you honestly think that women, by virtue of being women, are free to choose any fun, exciting job they want in the world? No, I'd say the opportunities for that choice are equally distributed across the sexes. It seems to have more to do with the extent of one's student loans and credit card debt than one's gender. I'm sorry to complain but your suggestion that because I am a woman I have a liberty that men cannot afford is somewhat offensive- especially since right now I'm working for a paycheck in a field a don't necessarily WANT to be in. But you know, rent is pricey, and I've got those pesky loans...oh, and if I ever have a child, it will probably be on my own. Got to save up to send her to college...

Look around you. How many stay-at-home moms do you see? Whose supporting them? Their trust funds? No. Their husbands.

How many women retire after 40-50 years of working full-time? How many men?

Honey, women have a choice: work or not. There's a default for women--still. Your husband will pick up the tab.

Men have no choice.

sorry, buggie, but males are STILL the primary breadwinner...i know i would rather stay home than do the hard physical work MOST males do...

So if a man wants a family, he might have to sacrifice fulfilling his dreams. Guess what? Women give up a whole lot to have kids. Probably more than men do. Quitcher whining.

you CHOOSE to have kids,,your CHOICE...i cannot CHOOSE to be born wealthy so i dont have to work....quit yer whinning about a CHOICE you have...

Richmond:

Look around you. How many stay-at-home moms do you see? Whose supporting them? Their trust funds? No. Their husbands.

How many women retire after 40-50 years of working full-time? How many men?

Honey, women have a choice: work or not. There's a default for women--still. Your husband will pick up the tab.

Men have no choice.

Richmond:

Look around you. How many stay-at-home moms do you see? Whose supporting them? Their trust funds? No. Their husbands.

How many women retire after 40-50 years of working full-time? How many men?

Honey, women have a choice: work or not. There's a default for women--still. Your husband will pick up the tab.

Men have no choice.

I don't know any stay-at-home moms. I don't think I've never even met one. I heard that one of my grandmothers didn't work for a while after having twins, but no one under the age of 90. I mean, I know people who go on maternity leave but...nope, I don't know any stay-at-home-moms.

Actually wait! I do know one stay-at-home dad!

I don't know about the retirement thing. I know both of my parents are still working well into their 60s, as are both my aunts and uncles. Of my parents' friends, both husbands and wives seem to have retired together. those are the only people of retirement age I know. I know one of my friend's grandmothers just retired at age 80-something (and I was told she was too frail to work but had no other choice).

I don't know where you think we get this choice from. How many men make enough money support two or more people by themselves? Maybe super-super rich people...

And even if this choice does exist, it would only exist for legally married women, or which there are less and less of in the US.

oh and also, if a woman were to stop working and have her husband support her, what does she do when her husband dies before her (as is statistically probable) and she's been out of the workforce for however many years? (same logic for divorce, which is also very likely) if she quits her job and has missed all that experience, how will she get hired? that's something any woman, even married, would have to remember.

oicuateonetwo:

you CHOOSE to have kids,,your CHOICE...i cannot CHOOSE to be born wealthy so i dont have to work....quit yer whinning about a CHOICE you have...

A man also CHOOSES to have kids, so quit yer "whinning" about a CHOICE you have...

If you want to only be responsible for yourself, don't get married and don't have kids.

lovelyrita:

oicuateonetwo:

you CHOOSE to have kids,,your CHOICE...i cannot CHOOSE to be born wealthy so i dont have to work....quit yer whinning about a CHOICE you have...

A man also CHOOSES to have kids, so quit yer "whinning" about a CHOICE you have...

If you want to only be responsible for yourself, don't get married and don't have kids.

haha yes! excellent point!

I take the general point: boys are raised to "choose" to have families just as much as girls are raised to "choose" this.

BUT: boys and girls are both raised to think it's OK for the mother to stay home with the kids.

NEITHER boys nor girls are raised to think it's OK for the father to stay home.

A woman who marries a brain surgeon is considered to have married well. Everyone applauds her "catch".

A boy who marries a brain surgeon is considered to be a gold digger, a gigolo, or a slacker.

Richmond:

I take the general point: boys are raised to "choose" to have families just as much as girls are raised to "choose" this.

BUT: boys and girls are both raised to think it's OK for the mother to stay home with the kids.

NEITHER boys nor girls are raised to think it's OK for the father to stay home.

A woman who marries a brain surgeon is considered to have married well. Everyone applauds her "catch".

A boy who marries a brain surgeon is considered to be a gold digger, a gigolo, or a slacker.

Nice, where did you get a time machine!?!?! 1823, here we come!!!

richmond, honey, what husband? You mean the man who I share a home with who has 2 kids from his divorce? Do you really think he's going to let me sit on my laurels and join the Junior League?

It's a very thin demographic slice where anyone, woman or man in a couple, can even consider staying home. I get your point, that men are supposed to bankroll this lifestyle, but honestly, who is still living that way that isn't already retired?

I know exactly one stay at home mom, who has been home for about 3.5 years and has started back to work part time with expectations to be fulltime again in the next couple years. And she wouldn't have been out of working if baby #3 hadn't been seriously ill for a couple years.

Richmond:

This would have been item #1 on the feminist agenda: equalize the financial responsibility of the family between spouses.

What do you think pushing to allow women into "men's" jobs does? Most of the jobs that were traditionally done by men, such as being a doctor, engineer, lawyer or a CEO pay far more than jobs that were traditionally done by women such as being a nurse, secretary, or school-teacher. How can women share the financial responsibility and not have equal opportunities at jobs that pay enough to do so.

Richmond:

Our culture more/less requires boys to go into finance and medicine and law. It allows girls to do so but who takes it seriously?

How old are you? 75? There are a great many women in finance, medicine and law. There are a great many men who are not in any of these fields. Now I would agree that there is still some latent sexism and that men who decide to be hairdressers and women who decide to be engineers are looked upon strangely, but we're slowly moving to a more egalitarian society.

Richmond:

When we all know, on some level, the girl can opt out of the work force.

This is complete bull. I know that I've never been told, "It's all right, if you don't want a job someone is going to come along and pay for you....."

Richmond:

Women who seek "fulfillment" make it impossible for their sisters--who are perhaps less flakey--to break barriers.

And people who view men and women who seek fulfillment as flakey are part of why there are so many unhappy people today. I don't think it's good for a man who wants to be a writer to be an engineer instead just as I don't think it's good for a woman who wants to be a writer to be an engineer. Now, of course on some level people make sacrifices in order to eat, but if we as a society stopped viewing income level as the sole indicator of worth both men and women would be a lot happier.

Richmond:

Everyone assumes behind every strong and successful woman is someone who really would rather just stay home and bake cookies.

Everyone? Hardly. Only bitter, old misogynists feel this way. I, for one, hate housework in all its forms. For a long time I had a house-husband and it was the greatest thing in the world. Many of my female collegues feel the same way.

Richmond:

Look around you. How many stay-at-home moms do you see?

None. I see a room full of physicists.....

In any case, I know exactly one stay at home mom, my husband's sister. All the mothers I know have jobs outside the house. I also know one stay at home dad, though he's planning on heading back to the work force when his youngest goes to school.

Richmond:

How many women retire after 40-50 years of working full-time? How many men?

Well 50 years ago women weren't really encouraged to go out in the workforce, so this isn't really a fair assessment of today's women. The question you should ask, is how many women who are in their 20s now will work full time for 40-50 years?

Richmond:

Honey, women have a choice: work or not. There's a default for women--still. Your husband will pick up the tab.

That is such bull. Very few people, male or female, earn enough money that their spouse can stay at home.