I really believe that we can control security at home by reining in the filth that we tolerate and expose our children to every day on tv and internet. If traditional muslims who want to maintain peace and raise their families without war are persuaded to the view of the United States as a out of control society they may be persuaded to join an extremist group. Can't we respect others views enough to lighten up on some of this garbage?

Wow that's the most profoundly idiotic statement I've read in a long time. And that's saying something in the Bush years. So they hate us because of what our children watch on TV? I see. It's not because of our collossal policy failures in the Middle East, it's MTV.

Yeah, thats quite wrong. I'm sorry.

WOW wonder if he's selling a few of them

Sayyid Qutb was the intellectual godfather to most radical Muslims, including members of Al Qaeda. From 1948 to 1950, he went to the US on a scholarship to study at Colorado State College in Greeley Colorado. He was shocked by the decadence of the West. He loathed its materialism, its freedom, its frivolity, its music and particularly its sexuality, including the co-mingling of genders in public places (Qutb was a lifelong bachelor, by the way, who never even found a Muslim girl who was pure enough for him). Upon his return to Egypt, he became the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood and the author of many anti-Western, anti-secular tracts, including "The America I Have Seen".

The irony is that Greeley, Colorado was a small, dry town in the western countryside during the reactionary McCarthy era; a more conservative time and place you couldn't find. This was a time before the sexual revolution, before Playboy, before rock n' roll, practically before television. And yet this was the America that so offended Qutb that he dedicated his life to its destruction.

So while I agree that the price of freedom is having to endure a lot of crap, the only culture that these jihadists respect is one involving beard police and burkas.

The people who purposefully kill the innocent are at fault. Not americans, not muslims or some other group you might hate. It is the individuals who plan, abbett or carry out the killing that are at fault. Their acts are unjustified, regardless of how much you hate George Bush.

Couldn't agree more. I just wish Bush would stop helping them.

Well said. Qutb was a fascinating figure that more Americans should learn about. It's interesting that some conservative rhetoric, like that of our friend BlueDanube above or the Hoover Institute "scholar" Dinesh D'Souza, has almost come around 360º to essentially say that the terrorists are right to hate us. Jeez, whose side are these guys on?

KINDA like what we are doing in iraq and afganistan? OHHHHH I see when we do it - it's in the name of freedom- when they do it , its just plain murder. SO TYPICAL

I am unaware that Americans have purposefully (i.e. targeted)killed the innocent. And by the way, the vast majority of deaths in Iraq are not caused by Americans. Only in the mind of the American liberal are all the deaths in Iraq caused by Americans. So yes, when the Sunni extremeist or Al Q fighter sets off a bomb in a market in Bagdad, it is murder. When American troops accidently kill a civilian while trying to catch the person who set off the bomb, it is not murder. Failure to reognize that difference is "so typical" of the modern American liberal.

OHHHH I see- so when we drop 2 ton bombs from 35,000 ft and kill hundreds of innocents then its ok because we were so high we couldn't see them? PURE BS killing is killing and I for 1 don't believe all them bombs going off in them markets are from AL Q. but just part of gw's stratergy to keep america there and make more millions.

There is a different between purposeful and knowing. And you completely disregard the efforts made to reduce or eliminate the killings of non-targets by the American military. Surely we have the capability to subdue that country by brutal force, but we do not. Instead, we are speding major cash trying to foster a democratically elected government.

And of course you don't belive that the bombs in the markets are from Al Q or Iraqui insurgents. But that is exactly why we cannot not rely on the opinions of you and people like you for the policy direction of this country and Iraq.

Perhaps there is a theoretical difference between purposeful and knowing, but that difference means fuck all to the victims and their family and friends.

And we are talking about more than the random collateral damage from a stray bullet or a civilian walking into the crossfire. Bombs in residential areas are pretty much the same, whether dropped from airplanes or strapped to suicide bombers, IMHO.

In any case, do you suppose that by throwing out the existing government (not that getting them out was not in itself desirable) without having a plan to have a stable replacement in the wings might have been a major contribution to the level of insurgent violence?

"Perhaps there is a theoretical difference between purposeful and knowing, but that difference means fuck all to the victims and their family and friends." Very good point. Nonetheless, (I suspect, though am not totally sure) that the vast majority of the civilian deaths in Iraq are not due to american/coalition bombs or bullets. The vast majority are the result of insurgents or non-coalition fighters.

Which brings us to your second point. It is a good point, as many lives would have been saved with a sound plan. Nonetheless, that does not make the USA the murderer when an insurgent blows himself along with a market full of people. In fact, what I am sure is a pluraility of the deaths are caused by the same thugs Saddam used to suppress his people. The fact that only now see (or care)how ruthless these people are, does not mean that they were any less ruthless before Saddam was toppled.

YA know, I'M getting a little tired of this insurgent shit. Why don't we call them what they are? They are citicens of that counrty who don't appreciate foriegners taking control. I DON'T THINK YOU WOULD WANT SOMEONE FRO A FORIEGN COUNTRY TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO! It's to late to think we can exit this gracfully. And there does come a time when we lose faith------that time has come..