I hope you don't take Prudie's advise seriously. Number 1: It is so sad that this feminist society has frightened men into submission such that they no longer act as men or fathers. You were so upset that you deleted the text messages? What's up with that??? You are afraid of your wife who is strict b/c you are acting like a scared puppy.

Yes. I am judging your behavior. I'm not judging whether you will go to heaven or hell. I can't make that kind of judgment, but everyone posting is making a judgment and writing about it. Your daughter's emotional and physical health are at risk. I call 'em as I seem 'em. A book that you must read immediately is: Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters: 10 Secrets Every Father Should Know by Meg Meeker, M.D. This doctor has experience in her practice with young women who deal with sexuality in various ways.

Number 2: Please ignore Prudie's seriously lame advice. Listen to your manly instincts. Talk to your wife. You are suppose to be a team, not hiding important information from her. The two of you should sit down with each other first to make your gameplan. Then talk with your daughter and tell her how disappointed you are in her behavior. Children (and she is still a child) want to know the limits, and this will show that you care enough to have a very serious albeit uncomfortable discussion.

At 16 she will want to know why she should refrain from sex until marriage. If you can't, I can tell her why. When you give your most precious gift - yourself - to another person, only in marriage can you experience the freedom that comes with trust and security. W/out marriage either one can bolt, and there are no consequences that anyone can see - only feel very deeply. While the possibility of unfaithfulness or divorce exist, only in the security of marriage comes the freedom of sexual expression as we were made to experience it - male and female He made them (somewhere in Genesis, I'm no bible scholar, I just know what makes sense and what works in the natural order).

Be a MAN. Be a FATHER. Tell your daughter the Truth about life. Prepare her for real life, real love. If marriage were not important, then why did you and your wife bother? Will she have sex b4 marriage anyway? Maybe. Maybe not. Many young women are discovering that the feminist lies ruined many lives, mine included. We ran after the self-centered goals of self expression, independence, fulfilment in our careers. With the battle cry "We are equal!" Now we have wildley sucessful careers, no husband, no children, and too much time to write on opinion boards to try to undue damage done by more feminist blah blah blah that has hurt women, families, and taken away men's manhood.

Women and men are equal in dignity, but we are very different and complementary beings. We were not created to be genderless androids.

Good luck to you. Read that book - Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters. Be a Father! Also, go have a Man-to-Almost Man talk with the recipient of those text messages. Standing up for your daughter (even and especially when she doesn't want it) is the type of behavior that let's the girl know that her father loves her enough to embarrass her and let's the guy know that he better not mess with your daughter. If he breaks up with your daughter, then she knows why he was with her. You already know why. He will have no problem finding another girl whose father is a wimp and will take Prudie's advice.

I wonder how you can speak with such authority about the male's role in life?

katgirl:

At 16 she will want to know why she should refrain from sex until marriage. If you can't, I can tell her why. When you give your most precious gift - yourself - to another person, only in marriage can you experience the freedom that comes with trust and security.

What you "give", as you put it, when you are deflowered, is perhaps your hymen (although it is rather frequent for the hymen to be ruptured by other means, or even not to be there at all to begin with). Equating the breaking of a membrane with giving yourself to someone seems to me to be a very odd way of thinking.

katgirl:

W/out marriage either one can bolt, and there are no consequences that anyone can see - only feel very deeply.

Aha. So what makes people stay with each other is only the fear of consequences which "anyone can see" (as opposed to consequences which one can "only feel very deeply". Not love, not trust, not loyalty. Fear of social condemnation.

katgirl:

While the possibility of unfaithfulness or divorce exist, only in the security of marriage comes the freedom of sexual expression as we were made to experience it - male and female He made them (somewhere in Genesis, I'm no bible scholar, I just know what makes sense and what works in the natural order).

Other than quoting from the scriptures of a desert tribe dating from the first millenium BC, could you please provide some grounds for the statements

(a) that freedom of sexual expression can only take place within the boundaries of a specific social contract, i.e. marriage;

(b) that there is such a thing as a "natural order" when it comes to human sexuality, and that this "natural order" involves the coupling of a male of the species with a female.

aainlondon you point out exactly what I would highlighted on with a few twists. The OP seems to come from a pro-gorean misogynistic submissive background with a xtian dogma twist.

In the very least if you are going to cite the Original Source Material, it is always nice to point out that the FIRST commandment is to go out and fuck and breed like bunnies. No mention of marriage until a few thousand years after that. totally inline with "Natural Order" : )

I have no problem with people attempting to pass their sexual moral code on to their kids, provided:

They are consistent with it. Don't tell the girl to abstain, and encourage the boy to "play the field," for instance.

They provide sufficient knowledge about birth control and the like on the strong possibility that the kid has sex anyway.

They still openly love the kid regardless of what the kids end up doing with their own bodies.

I've given basically the same advice to my daughters and to my son regarding sex and other life issues. They know where I stand, but I haven't rejected any for decisions they've made on sex or on anything else. Not to say we haven't had some ... spirted debate about those choices, when I think they are doing something that has the potential to harm them later.

Incog,

I may be dragging up older issues that I missed while in Belgium but what about the FLDS and their child rearing practises in Texas at YFZ Ranch?

Okay, I did leave out, "provided that ... they aren't flaunting the law." However, the FLDS do NOT teach a consistent (between genders) value. Men may marry as often as they want; women only once. Men also seem to have much more say in whom they marry. I don't think underaged marriage with middle-aged women has been an issue for the boys, either.

The thing is that the entire cult as a whole is consistent within its indoctrination of the children and the specified gender roles. The one major rule is that defiance or objection results in expulsion from the group and those expelled will never obtain Nirvana I mean the after life.

katgirl:

It is so sad that this feminist society has frightened men into submission such that they no longer act as men or fathers.

What. you mean the men in your life ask for directions? Wow.

katgirl:

Listen to your manly instincts.

This literally sent coffee out of my nose. "My manly instincts say we should have steak and beer for dinner!" You're pretty funny.

katgirl:

At 16 she will want to know why she should refrain from sex until marriage. If you can't, I can tell her why. When you give your most precious gift - yourself - to another person, only in marriage can you experience the freedom that comes with trust and security.

As someone who had sex before marriage and now has sex in marriage, I'm going to say that's a load of bull. There is no reason to refrain from sex until marriage, though there are a few reasons to wait until she's a bit older. You can "give" yourself to more than one person in your life. It's not like you get used up the first time around. I do agree that sex in marriage is nicer on average than sex outside of marriage. However, part of the reason it is good for us is because both of us were well practiced and knew what we liked and didn't like.

katgirl:

If marriage were not important, then why did you and your wife bother?

Marriage is important. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have sex before marriage.

What is this "giving..yourself" crap? Since when are women property? Do you really believe that, that you need to just hand yourself over like a dog or a horse to some guy for life, whether or not he treats you well? Really?

*shudder*

Either you are painfully young, or desperately stupid. Of course you might be a cultist from Texas, too.

I think it's easy for some women to just give in and do what they're told. There's no need to take responsibility for your life or blame when you screw up when you think of yourself as the property of the men you consider your "owners".

What a boring, sad little life that would be.

MessyONE:

There's no need to take responsibility for your life or blame when you screw up when you think of yourself as the property of the men you consider your "owners".

My father expected each of his daughters to get their "Mrs. degree." Had I or my sister been that type, he'd be supporting us all himself, over the age of 90. She is widowed, and my husband is disabled. Who'd be "taking care of us" now, I wonder, had we followed my father's wishes?

Bad enough he has a middle-aged son to support.

I felt this required a seperate post as it is a different topic.

katgirl:

Many young women are discovering that the feminist lies ruined many lives, mine included.

No one can wreck your life but you. If you are not mature enough to understand what sort of life *you* personally want, that is not the fault of feminists. They have merely fought so that you have the right to decide whether you want to be a lawyer, doctor, physicist, nurse, or stay-at-home mom.

katgirl:

We ran after the self-centered goals of self expression, independence, fulfilment in our careers. With the battle cry "We are equal!" Now we have wildley sucessful careers, no husband, no children, and too much time to write on opinion boards to try to undue damage done by more feminist

There are plenty of successful women who have husbands and children. There are also plenty of women who are perfectly happy without a husband and/or without children. There are unhappy women who are married and have kids. A person needs to figure out what she wants in life and then persue it. She needs to learn to prioritize what she wants to do with her life because it may not be possible to do it all.

But the idea that men and women are equal is not a lie. The fact that some women are unhappy with the life they have chosen doesn't change this. There were plenty of unhappy, married mothers who stayed at home or had a more traditionally feminine job in times past. Heck, there are some right now!

If you don't like your life, don't blame the feminists. Grow up and take charge of it and figure out what it is that will make you happy.

katgirl:

Women and men are equal in dignity, but we are very different and complementary beings. We were not created to be genderless androids.

Men and women really aren't all that different when it comes to what they want in life. That doesn't mean we're "genderless androids", but that people are people.

katgirl:

If he breaks up with your daughter, then she knows why he was with her. You already know why. He will have no problem finding another girl whose father is a wimp and will take Prudie's advice.

This is such BS. The idea that women are nonsexual beings who desire romantic companionship and are so stupid that they are tricked by devious sex driven men who only care about getting laid is completely wrong. Women like sex and men like romance.

Interestingly enough, my grandfather (my mom's dad) insisting that each of his six daughters get a college degree before getting married. He wanted them to be self-sufficient. For an old irish guy, he was pretty liberal!

Zoinks! katgirl, you totally sound like either a virgin, or a woman whose husband is terrible in bed and spouts out all that marriage=love=sex crap so he can convince you you'll go to hell if you start looking for a better lay.

I can't help but wonder, though, about all those animals that mate for life without the benefit of marriage. What was god thinking when he let that happen?

I wish you were a bible scholar, cuz maybe then you'd be able to figure out what it's really trying to teach you. Hint: blind faith in man-made institutions isn't it.