Saletan suggests that we should "Help these women deceive their husbands and parents. If they want artificial hymen restoration, let them have it."

Where do we draw the line for this deception? What if a someone wants to marry someone else on the pretense of being a Muslim? Should we set up a network of fake clergymen to convince potential (or current) spouses that their potential partners share their religion? Why advocate deceit?

If I marry a woman based on her assurances that she keeps kosher and she doesn't, the has perpetrated a truly dishonest act and if I request an annulment I should be granted it! Sure keeping kosher may be an utterly pointless backward belief causing people to deny themselves the pleasures of life but so what? If I value it I have the right only to marry someone who shares my values.

There's no question that if someone's life is in danger he/she may use deception or surgery or whatever tool is at his/her disposal as a means of protection. But frankly if a black women thinks to dye her skin in order to marry a white supremacist, she should reconsider her options. Because she would just be doing herself a great disservice, she'd be committing a great injustice against him because even a racist deserves to know who he's marrying. (Note that I'm just illustrating an extreme example; I in no way intend to equate Muslims and racists. I think there's a lot more to be said for one who does what he believes to be the will of God than for one who lashes out against anyone who is different. However, I believe even the latter have rights.)

If your hypothetical wife lied about keeping kosher I doubt you would round up your father and brothers to beat her to death.

As for your extreme analogy about black women deceiving white supremacists by disguising themselves as white... uhh... not a valid argument unless you posit that these hypothetical black women haveno other option but to choose from a pool of white supremacist mates....

You are overlooking the culture of duress in which women in these cultures operate to begin with. In a culture where your options for survival are severely limited if you don't marry *some*man, and yet the men in your life would gladly end your life if they knew you weren't pure as the driven snow for your wedding day... well, what the hell ARE you to do in the meantime???

Recall that Saletan's article discusses hymenoplasty in France not Saudi Arabia. Do you believe that a woman who reveals her loss of virginity in France really needs to fear for her life? Is there no rule of law in the French Republic? Furthermore it is impossible for a non-virgin muslim woman to get married in the country? Even for someone who won't marry a non-muslim there are no muslim men who will marry a non-virgin. It didn't sound so bad in the article Saletan was citing. The article concludes with this heartening statement:

'At the Islamic Center of Roubaix, the Lille suburb where the wedding took place, there is sympathy for the woman.

“The man is the biggest of all the donkeys,” said Abdelkibir Errami, the center’s vice president. “Even if the woman was no longer a virgin, he had no right to expose her honor. This is not what Islam teaches. It teaches forgiveness.”'

I have no doubt that muslim women face many cultural constraint even in France but it is not a society run by sharia law. If you'll be killed or starve if you don't lie then fine, lie. But don't trick someone into marrying you if alternatives exist.

Yes, there is rule of law in France .... However, women in France and elsewhere in Europe who come from fundamentalist Islamic communities are under great pressure. The rate of Honor Killings, that is where muslim women are murdered by their own male relatives for having a relationship with a non-muslim or for refusing to join in an arranged marriage or for otherwise dishonoring the family, are on the increase. It is often difficult to prosecute these cases because of the code of silence that can be observed within these communities. There was a case last year in England where a young muslim woman went to the police and asked for protection from her father and brothers. The police did not believer her and she was later found dead.

Genital mutilation is another problem in Europe. It is practiced by some African immigrants. A young child died in Ireland recently, but the authorities could not make a case because the parents refused to give evidence. I believe the parents should have been prosecuted or deported, but that is another story.

Saletan says -- if the muslims want this then let them have it. But how many of these horrors are we supposed to accept in the name of tolerance?

Rand:

Do you believe that a woman who reveals her loss of virginity in France really needs to fear for her life? is impossible for a non-virgin muslim woman to get married in the country?

Yes. I have lived in America and, now, I live in France. There are honor killings here, where "impure" daughters or wives are killed to save the family honor. Honor killings happen everywhere, Rand; they've occurred in America, Canada, Europe, Asia and, of course, the Middle East.

You seem incredibly naive, so I wouldn't expect you to fully understand what a big deal hymen restoration might be for a young women. It could often be the difference between being ostracized socially for life or, even, being murdered by one of your own family members. This is not a trivial case of "oh, damn, need to get that hymen restored so I can fool my husband, tee-hee!" It's often a decision made from either fear or desperation.

So, please educate yourself; I saw the same article that you used the quote from about the man being a donkey. It's interesting that you glossed right over many other quotes, talking about women being in fear of the lives and safety for not being virgins. Are you just being willfully ignorant or what?

I don't get why the hymen restorations actually have to be done? Why can't we set up real doctors willing to sign the certificates of virginity? When I got married, I had a friend become a "preacher" online so he could marry my husband and me. Isn't that the same type of dodge?

It's the woman's family who chooses who will examine her to "prove" her virginity.

Iio, I chose that quote in order to show that (relative) progressives do exist. I was attacking the notion that most Muslim women are completely unable to get married without proof of virginity. Any woman who is trapped in a relationship that she cannot break off, with someone who will hurt her or inform family members who will hurt her if she confides in him, should do what she must. However to choose to engage in a deceitful relationship is not justified. I wanted to show that the possibility of marriage still exists and so quoted from the end of the article, though perhaps I would have been better served by a preceding quote from a Muslim couple:

“It doesn’t matter for my fiancé that I am not a virgin — but it would pose a huge problem for his family,” she said. “They know that you can pour blood on the sheets on the wedding night, so I have to have better proof.”

Of course honor killings happen and I don't intend to condemn any woman who does whatever she must to avoid them. However in the annulment case it seems pretty clear that no ones life was in danger, the woman suffered no harm and her husband was content to work within the French legal system to annul the marriage. I was simply attacking Saletan for his (apparent) wholehearted endorsement of hymenoplasty even for women who simply want to marry men who are even more fundamentalist than they are. And I don't think that's okay.

chinpudding:

If your hypothetical wife lied about keeping kosher I doubt you would round up your father and brothers to beat her to death.

The problem here is not virginity or chastity!
Say you're married to a guy overseas x years ago only to discover that he was still married to another which he abandoned in his city or country of origin.
Could you endure such situations? Personally, I can not because it is from the outset a question of trust; and a lack of credibility is the least we can say. Yet, To Lie Is Human: Not Getting Caught Is Divine.

Ex-Pat:

Saletan says -- if the muslims want this then let them have it. But how many of these horrors are we supposed to accept in the name of tolerance?

You are simply dramatizing this issue. I think virginity in Islam is a symbol that helps distinguish a whore from a chaste one i.e. a product that can be bought and sold and a human that can't be even hired.