voters out of the Democratic party and into McCain's camp? I'm at loss. Either you all really stink at negotiating skills or you have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement that gives you the illusion of a right to tell people what they have to do or else. Most people would rather risk an adverse reaction rather than submit to the will of a complete stranger.

When negotiating the thing you never want to do is a) threaten someone, b) tell someone that they are dumb, wrong, evil, selfish, etc and b) tell them how right you are. So, continue driving Clinton voters away. But you guys can't do nearly the damage as so many of the Obama surrogate pundits are doing in the press today. I'm absolutely horrified at the things I've read today. It's like the pundits/columnists want to ensure a McCain victory.

By the way, the way you negotiate is to a) compliment and b) find common ground and then c) ask about the stumbling blocks and objections and then finally d) working carefully without offending the customer to overcome those stumbing blocks and objections.

Ellen,

What you need to get a grasp of is that there is (and has been for quite a long time) a relatively LARGE group of people who simply LOATHE Hillary--strictly for and by her OWN "merits."

That can be discussed, etc. That is less RELEVANT now than it was before. But it IS (and was) a phenomenon.

And there's another phenomenon: FANATIC Hillary supporters (see Harriet Christian) who simply DESPISED people for preferring someone else to their candidate (and who screamed every variation of victimhood simply because lots of people voted for someone else). Some people (such as myself) have been rather taken aback in seeing such large mobs of people foam at the mouth--especially when the alternative (Obama) seems like a reasonable choice.

IOW: There was vitriol from Hillary supporters, which was followed by a REACTION from Obama supporters. If Hillary supporters hadn't acted as though they had rabies, then Obama supporters wouldn't have become wary and defensive toward them.

without Hillary supporters, then we are stuck with McSame. I don't understand why the DNC have been so nasty to Hillary.

I have been pretty careful not to say anything about Hillary other than what related directly to policy. I just don't know if serves anyone to engage in these type of debates at this point. I can understand if you feel upset and want to express that or talk about it with other like minded individuals, but what purpose would it really serve for me to piss you off in this situation? What would be gained by that?

All I can tell you is how this person changed from a reasonably indifferent poster into one that felt under siege simply because I wrote positive things about Obama. I was undecided until the race speech. When that speech was completed, I wrote a piece here on it that was checkmarked and got at least 15 thumbs up. I did not bash her at all, it was a piece on how remarkable that speech was and how I felt about Obama.

That single post was on the first page of "The Fray" for about 2 weeks and it drew attention. I got vicious attacks for even suggesting that the speech was a great one. It was a shock to me to find out just how much some folks did not want Obama to be given his due.

That opened up my eyes to the insane passion that was just under the surface of this race. Up until then, I just wanted a Democrat. By the time I had been insulted many times over, I was pissed. To be honest, I have been over the top and I know it. But none of this started with the Obama camp or supporters. Its been a defensive reaction all along and that is why now that the race is over, you are seeing Obama supporters lashing out.

It will end. Its time to call it over.

Obama has been gracious and above it all. I think Hillary has come to grips with it too. Democrats need to do the same, soon. The alternative is McCain.

And there's yet another way to put it: Hillary supporters seemed to mirror Hillary herself (IMO), they could get very ANGRY; every win was DEFIANCE; every loss was meaningless, or due to stupidity/sexism, blah, blah, blah.

Obama supporters are mostly just HAPPY, happy they've found somebody with a new and uplifting message and attitude--and happy that a lot of others see it the same way. Yeah, they bridled a bit about Kentucky and WVa--but only for a day or two, and then forgot about it.

Obama supporters smile, Hillary supporters foam.

Obama supporters smile, Hillary supporters foam.

Geez, grow up!

Well we thought you would vote for Obama because we thought you were democrats. Turns out you're Clintonites. We didn't realize this and it's taking a while to adjust.

p.s. I find it massively hypocritical that you'd talk about Obama supportes having a sense of entitlement.

I'm, uh, pretty grown up, NJ Gal. Thanks.

Care to elaborate on just how that (widely accepted) observation is not "grown up?"

Obama supporters smile, Hillary supporters foam.

I'm not a fan of schoolyard taunts. Especially when written, what one person thinks is funny or clever, may be offensive to someone else....and it can't be taken back.

I don't think we should discount or mock the true affection that some Clinton supporters have for their candidate. I would rather make nice and get them to support Obama.

If you want to feel superior - be the bigger person and let it go.

But the purpose of this thread was to raise the question of possible causes of "hesitation" about Clinton supporters. I've never seen (and couldn't imagine seeing) an Obama supporter version of a Harriet Christian. I have READ endless posts on this forum by Clinton supporters EVERY BIT as filled with venom and hysteria as Harriet Christian's famous spitting rant.

So, again, I offer the evidence of that mindset/attitude as explanation for the wariness (hopelessness?) over trying to coddle such people.

Now I suppose I can add another reason for pause: puzzlement. I have ALWAYS failed to understand the frenzied intensity widely found among Clinton supporters (especially since she has nothing particularly different or earth-shaking to say; and since she has many negatives that have been in evidence for over a decade). So...it's difficult to know how (or why) to try to embrace such people, without understanding what has driven them into their frenzy...

I have ALWAYS failed to understand the frenzied intensity widely found among Clinton supporters (especially since she has nothing particularly different or earth-shaking to say; and since she has many negatives that have been in evidence for over a decade). So...it's difficult to know how (or why) to try to embrace such people, without understanding what has driven them into their frenzy...

It's called values and life experiences. They don't see the same big negatives you do in Clinton - but they see big negatives in Obama that we don't. We don't needs a big therapy session to accept that people are different. I have read some of the posters try to explain their feelings, but they are chased away from XX because their stories and experiences and feelings are discounted as just stupid or wrong. My god, have we become so arrogant that we think we know all that there is to know, that we are always right?

I have read some pretty awful words about these supporters written by Obama supporters in XX, other blogs and the MSM - her supporters must be extremely ignorant, stupid or racist to support her. Or they must be bitter old hags. Please, how is that constructive? I dont want someone to talk about my mother that way!

Do you agree with everyone in your life about everything? I sure don't, but I try to accept people and value them for who they are. Can't you just stop there?

The race is over, the bigger one is about to begin. Clinton supporters should be on our side, not on the sidelines. I never served in the military, but I can't believe that all soldiers like and understand each other. However, they still pull together and have each other's back.

And frankly some of the Obama worship I have read and seen just creeps me out and I am a fan of his.

Differnetellen,

My first point is that you need to keep whatever insults you've received in context. 18 million people on each side means that you are going to get a few jerks. Its pretty sad if we let these huge diverse groups get reduced to a few rude supporters on either side.

Second, I myself and many other Obama fans have tried very hard to reach out in many ways. The responses are sometimes wonderful. Unfortunately, they are also frequently meanspirited. If we explain why we think Obama is a good candidate we are told not to force our opinions on you. If we say that if you believe in Hillary's policies then you should vote against McCain, we are told not to take your vote for granted.

Many times, i've seen Hillary supporters in the fray ignore the kindest posts and choose to respond to the most inflammatory statements. Its like they decide to perpetuate the worst of the debates that have been going on for months.

Regards,

Blueshift

Sorry NJ Gal,

Nothing in what you say explains the FRENZY.

I've seen many US elections--I've never seen that kind of frenzy; the kind that turns to hatred when things don't go well for their candidate.

I've just never seen it before (on the national level, anyhow). I'm open for examples (from the last 40-50 years).

At least to the first part of your question - why would Obama supporters seek to drive Clinton supporters out of the Democratic party?

I do think a huge part of this contest is about the soul and the future of the Democratic Party. The ranks of the Democratic Party have swollen in the last eight years, largely in response to George Bush. I've long been an ambivalent Democrat and ardently anti-Clinton. I voted Nader in '96 and '00. But the Bush Administration drove me into the arms of the Democratic Party, and I began looking for candidates who promised a new direction to fund and support.

In '04, it was Howard Dean who was promising a new direction. I was disappointed to watch his campaign flounder, but voted for Kerry with deep reluctance. In '08, Obama inherited the energy and finances of Dean's voters. There's undeniably an element of messianism among some Obama supporters, and Obama undeniably posseses a political charisma that wins him support in unlikely places. But there are also a lot of people like myself, who are behind Obama because he represents an institutional reform of the Democratic Party itself. And those numbers have only grown over the last four years.

Hillary Clinton represents the Democratic Party I never wanted to join. Had she won the nomination, I'd have voted John McCain, because he comes from the Republican Party I can live with (I grew up in O.C., and have a high tolerance for Western conservatism (as opposed to Southern)). In the end, the party that Hillary Clinton, and the Clintons represent - short-term thinking, political expedience, and pre-emptive compromise - isn't a party I'd willingly join. If the stakes for the nation were less, I'd probably still barely be a part of it.

To the extent Clinton supporters represent a vision of the Democratic Party that I find obsolete and detrimental to the national interest, I do hope to see them persuaded... or supplanted. The Party's gotten a lot bigger in the last eight years, and the newcomers have a very different taste in music. While there will soon be peace between the candidates, I think the larger and deeper contest has only just begun.