"Dispensationalism" as such is a relatively new theology finding is birth in the late 1890's. Most Christians around the world have rejected it--if they heard of it at all. It resembles a 4th century heresy which insisted the "1000 year reign of the righteous" found in the Revelation of St. John was literal and not symbolic as the Church had taught.

Luther taught that there are things/workings of God that are hidden from us. Sometimes this is referred as the "left hand" of God. This side of God is to be worshipped and praised as we would with the "right hand"; but we are not to speculate or delve into the hidden work of God. Thus trying to find a reason for the Holocaust much less its connection to the establishment of Israel...well, you just don't go there. The purposes of God could well have nothing to do with either.

Most Christians in America heed the warning in Scripture that the time of the "day to come" is known only to the Father--even Christ Himself did not know the time or day. Thus it is useless to discern the day of the end through "signs". In addition, there is nothing that can be used to prompt history to a shorter path to Christ's return: including establishing Israel.

Most American Christians support Israel because: 1.) they have generally positive opinions of Jews as people. And (2.) after the Holocost, it seems reasonable that the Jews should be allowed to form their own nation so that they would not be subject to the notions of the the "King" or majority.

Be that as it may, many Christians are critical of the statehood of Israel and anything suggesting it is the "plan" of history. Recognizing Israel as a nation is more accepting a present reality rather than any pro-Israel theology.

I can think of no better way, however, to get people to speculate about, even obsess over the "day to come" than to act mysterious about it and claim that only God knows when it will arrive.

Which may have been intentional on the part of those who've made a career of promoting and discussing Millenialism down through the centuries...:)

Most American Christians support Israel because: 1.) they have generally positive opinions of Jews as people. And (2.) after the Holocost, it seems reasonable that the Jews should be allowed to form their own nation so that they would not be subject to the notions of the the "King" or majority.

Rather, I perceive that most Christians have, at best, an ambivalent opinion of Jews and Judaism: They have no concept of Judaism as other than a precursor to Christianity; and Jews are an enigma in their rejection of Christ as the Messiach (or an avatar of God).

Further, though many American Christians support Israel as the homeland for the Jews, and as a Jewish state, I think they most often see it in the same context as Pastors Hagee, Parsley, et al., who perceive of the State of Israel as primarily a necessariy element in Christian salvation and dominance.

Further, though many American Christians support Israel as the homeland for the Jews, and as a Jewish state, I think they most often see it in the same context as Pastors Hagee, Parsley, et al., who perceive of the State of Israel as primarily a necessariy element in Christian salvation and dominance.

Disagreed. I think the only ones that go that far are the rabid Christians. Not all Christians obsess about the Rapture. Even those that believe in all the apocalyptic End Times talk. From my observation, for many people there is a disconnect between such events. They accept the existence of Israel and that it matches up with their "prophetic" scriptures, but I don't here them calling for the desecration of temples, etc...

It has been my experience also, that it's more an accepting of Israel as a reality. Many people know little about the subject and don't really care. They are too busy trying to figure out a way to pay for their $50 fill up at the gas station. People that I know that are educated on the subject seem to think (as I do) that the way the state was created was extremely bad form and unfair to the previous inhabitants, although they differ on how to deal with it since Israel already exists.... ( I certainly have no suggestions. I'm just here to call out SNAFU's when I see 'em, not to fix 'em!)

Modern dispensationalism goes back to John Nelson Darby, who was active from the 1830s to the 1870s.

And Darby was a latecomer to Christian historicism, which goes back at least to the time of Constantine. (Actually, Christianity inherited its historicist curse from historicism's inventor--Judaism.)

Interestingly, my review of Jewish stories about the Messiach suggests that the concept is closer to that of a sacral savior-king, not a personification of Adonai. It is more of a replay of Cyrus ending the captivity of Babylon and letting the Jews go home. Christ really doesn't fit that mold.

Yea, I would say there is a disconnect assocaited with ALL faith based so called 'reasoning'.

The disconnect is with logic and reason in favor of voodoo and myth!

In my other post, I said "far too many Christians." I don't think (like the top-level post) that this is a majority opinion among Americans, but it is far more common that would be good. I do think that there is a strong argument that seeking to hastening the end of the world is intrinsically implied by Christian doctrine, but I don't know too many people who end up choosing doctrine over culture, even among those who consider themselves to do otherwise.

I think this shows how much conflict there is between our culture and the majority religion.

My suggestions on Israel:

1) Recognize that a "Jewish State" is not a long-term possibility there. Current demographics suggest a majority of the citizens will be Arabs (and most of them will be Muslims) within 40 years. The goal needs to be equitable treatment for all Israeli citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity. This includes the Beduin of the Negev, the Druze, and the Arabs of the little triangle who today account for about 20% of the citizenry.

2) Recognize that the best way to preserve a Jewish majority in Israel is to push for manifest equal rights to the Arabs who are citizens of the country, and this includes employment and housing equality which, though legally mandated, is not a reality on the ground. Until this happens, the lower class Arabs will have many more children than the Jews, and the Jewish majority will become a minority.

3) Recognize the need for established borders, and that the only real candidate for such borders are the Green Line.

4) Recognize the need for independent states or return of territories occupied since 1967. I think it would be better for Gaza and the West Bank to be separate, independent states for logistical reasons (territorial integrity, etc). Golan should be returned to Syria.

5) Recognize a need for reparations for the ethnic cleansing campaigns from the 1948-49 war. This should be monetary compensation, rather than a right to return.

Implement plans to meet each of these assessments. I think that accepting the above ideas is harder than implementing them for most who see support for Israel in cosmic, agonal terms.

you had me until you came to reparations. I think reparation policies don't work unless you can address the issue closer than over half a century later. Later generations are just going to resent the fact that they are being held accountable for a situation they weren't even alive for. But then hey, maybe I'm just mad because i'm still waiting for my 40 acres and a mule. ;)

I don't think that reparations would necessarily need to be "we will pay each Palestinian in refugee camps X shekels." There could be all manner of forms that this could take.

Refugee camps are not a 50+ year solution either.

Jews and Christians are looking for the return of Christ in person. Christians are looking for Him to come the second time after He snatches them into the air (dispies only) and Jews the first. All are looking for his righteous reign of a thousand years from David's throne while evil is restrained. Those Christians that don't expect Christ to rule and reign on earth for a thousand years expect that He will come with resurection and Final Judgement. They see the thousand year reign of Christ as beig the church's reign through the pope, but then, its been two thousand years.

God is likely to come and save his church from extintion through various revelations concerning His Word. The canon of general Revelation is closed. The Word for All Mankind and History has been written. What has happened is that scholars have turned to the word just like in old days when Josiah, for instance found the scrolls and took Israel from apostacy to fealty to Jehovah (Jesus preincarnate). As God turned men like Luther and Calvin to The Word to learn that Salvation is not of Works, a concept clearly spelled out in the Scripture but buried by Catholic ritual for a millenium, so he turned men like Darby, but most notably CI Scofield of late 19th century fame to Dispensationalism. Now, premillenium returnof Christ and pre tribulational rapture ARE acceptable with modifications in even Reformed Theology traditions. They still reject dispensational premillenialism but that is because they are stil Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth, yet. Many Dispies are still Arminian.

Perfect Theology? Pre-trib & Pre-mill Calvinist Christian Theology, of course.

Why didn't the church have pre-mill all along? It did back inthe old days. It also expected the imminent return of Jesus which is a pre-trib concept. It may have been persecuted as a heresy for a while by the papists, but they were so demanding that they wouldn't even let Catholics take vows of poverty and adopt adult baptism. I don't know if the Pre-tribbers got it like the Ableginisans, but I think the Pope's very first "Crusade" was somewhere around 600 AD against a French heretic. Funny that would be about the time Mohammed would raise his ugly head. I guess God figured that if a world had to sink into apostasy He'd let a doozy in on them. I think the church was totally corrupt within a hundred years of Constantine's state take-over of the church.

But God works all things together for the good of those who love HIm.

Dd

What the hell are you talking about?!!

...for the return of Jesus Christ; not even "for the first time".

The "Messiah/Moshiach" that some Jews are awaiting (messianism is not an integral part of Judaism, past or present) in no way matches Christ or The Passion.

Sorry, Jesus Christ is the Messiah whether he is recognised by the Jews or not. I agree that the Messiah the Jews were and are waiting for did not fit the profile of Christ as He came (The Suffering Servant) even though the prophecy necessary to come to that conclusion was present in ancient texts, pretty much. Now, Christians and Jews are waiting on the conquering hero to return and save Israel at her gravest hour. The entire Great Tribulation period is given in order to win over the elect of Israel. The whore bride will return to the bridgroom, you might say. The Bible says that the Wrath of God will be poured out upon the whole earth for the sake of Israel. This will happen after God removes his second wife from the planet through the rapture and takes The Restrainer out of the way so Satan can have his sway.

Christendom is finally going to get what it has been kicking for, the God of Abraham letting them go their own way without His nasty laws against butt-humping, theft and adultry.

Dd.

Sorry, but Jesus Christ is not the Moshiach described in the Tanach. (Don't you find it relevant that the Moshiach is not mentioned in the Pentatuch; though a Moshiach is talked about in some of the Prophets (but not all), and not at all in Psalms, Ruth, Esther, Daniel, Ecclesiaties, Song of Solomon, Joshua, etc.

The Jewish Prophets who do portend the coming of the Moshiach do not conflate the Moshiach with God.

Now, you may be right about the divinity of Jesus Christ; but you are wrong about Jews, Judaism, and the Jewish Testament.