Busy day today. Finally got to read the column at lunch.

1) You can't protect the kids from all hurts. You might start buffering it in advance, with comments like he knows money is tight sometimes, and it might be hard for her to get it for him. Do NOT tell him beforehand that she isn't coming through, because she may change her mind again, and may you look like the bad guys for "lying." Some parents simply aren't dependable. It's better he find it out on a birthday present than on something like a promise to pay for college or his wedding.

Prudie, she didn't ask your advice on whether to give the kid a phone. They were going to tolerate it, but it's still not a necessity, especially when there will usually be one around to use if needed. If and when they do get him one, there are plenty of plans which limit the kids' choices and airtime, including prepaid.

2) Next time he offers to put in $20 - which was less than half and doesn't consider tip - mention that since you went all out on the last dinner, you can't afford your share. Better yet, when you make plans to go out, let him know this in advance. My money is on he'll ask you out far less often.

3) Keep it simple. State that you don't pray, but that you wish him all the best. If they start to try to convince you to pray, tell them you'd rather not discuss it.

4) Welcome to the real world. Explain to your friend that you've accepted a job which will/may interfere with those plans, but that you really had been looking forward to it. Then, if you like, talk to your new boss. Explain that you had had a trip planned for however many days, and ask if it would be possible to go on the trip, perhaps making the time up later. Some will allow it, and others will not.

Or you could lie and say your (late) grandmother died, and you will be needed for a few days. However, in the days where they could easily look up the funeral notices on the internet, that's probably a very bad idea, especially if you come back with a fresh tan or whatever.

IncogNeato:

Next time he offers to put in $20 - which was less than half and doesn't consider tip -

I'm reminded of the first time my parents sent my little sister to visit me while I was in college. They had given her money for food and my mom had explictly stated that I was not to pay for anything.

So we're sitting in a restaurant with a group of my friends, collecting money for the bill and had the following conversation.

Sis: My meal was $6.95 so here's $7.

Me: You got a soda as well. That's $1.50.

Sis: Oh. Ok. (Starts digging for more money)

Me: Tax is 8%, so that would be another 80 cents.

Sis: Tax? Ok. (Keeps digging)

Me: And then you have to tip the waiter. He did a good job, which in this area means a 20% tip. So that would be another $1.70. So your meal cost you $11, not $7.

Sis: Really?

She'd had no idea at how all this worked. I suspect the learning experience was good for her.

Why is it necessary to say that she doesn't pray? If she really doesn't want to promise to pray because she won't keep the promise, she could always say, "I'm sure any God that would give him to you in the first place has a plan in mind." That would likely be sufficient response and not get the poor woman wound up about the existence of God.

Why not say she doesn't pray, if that's the truth? My standard response is the LW's simple, "I'll keep x in my thoughts." If pressed, my follow up is, "I don't pray, but I'll be thinking about x." If I like the person, I may follow up by offering to ask my friends who do pray to do so (and then I do ask them). That way, no one is lying and I've been perfectly polite.

Because it's polite.

That's the reason for any social lie. I repeat: Because its polite.

Someone who is going through and emotionally trying time doesn't care a fig for what you think, and rightfully so. All you are required to do is make them feel better.

Speaking of being polite, even if someone is going through a trying time, it's not very polite to push your religious (or not) beliefs on others in any way. So to go on and on about the power of prayer to an atheist is the same as an atheist going on and on about how there is no god to a religious person...

The idea of just saying you'll pray to be polite is extremely offensive to an atheist. Should a person who does not eat pork for religious reasons just go ahead and eat pork to not offend their coworkers at a company picnic? I think not. No one should be obligated to do anything for others in any religious or non-religious way, especially in a working environment.

I also have to assume that anyone who says it's no big deal is probably someone who is religious, or at least was religious, or has no real feelings about the situation at all... That doesn't mean others won't...

For crying out loud...atheists are so touchy. It's like you NEED to make sure EVERYONE knows that you don't believe in their god. The mere omission of this information in the face of someone who acknowledges a god is some kind of betrayal and source of angst...

I am not religious, I don't know if there is a god, but if a friend wants me to pray for her child/parent/husband, I'll pray. If there's no one listening, so what? If it makes her feel better, that's fine by me. How can you get so bent out of shape about making some gesture toward something that doesn't exist? Sure, it's meaningless to you, but it's meaningful to that other person, so what's the harm?

Yes, I would read bones for a friend who asked me to. I would dance around a fire. I probably wouldn't offer a blood sacrifice, but short of injuring someone, yeah, I'd do it. Even if I don't share their beliefs. The point of comforting others is to make THEM feel better, and I'd do that in whatever way made THEM feel better. If you don't believe in god, then "praying" might make you feel foolish, but it's the equivalent of talking to a wall...you're not consorting with the enemy, because there is no enemy. Maybe your thoughts=their prayers. Pray to the earth, to the powers of healing, to the science that may cure the sick person.

And ease up on the person who relies on her faith to get her through a tough time. That's the upside of religion...it's what religion is for.

kindageeky:

For crying out loud...atheists are so touchy. It's like you NEED to make sure EVERYONE knows that you don't believe in their god.

I'm fairly religious. However, I know I probably would not pray for some random person who's a friend of a relative of a relative of a friend. If anything, I'll make a quick, on-the-spot prayer for them, but really, after that I've usually forgotten about them. It's not that I don't care. I just have an awful lot of stuff on my plate without trying to keep in mind every acquaintance's friend or relative with a problem.

I do NOT like to say I'll pray for someone if I really am not likely to. Not only is it a lie, but then I feel bad when they give me updates later about how Great-Uncle Joe is doing and thank me for praying for him, telling me how much it helped. I might think about my friend and how they are doing with having a loved one who is ill, but I really don't think about the anonymous, faceless, usually nameless person they are concerned about.

Hah! I knew I'd flush one out of the woodwork! Pitifully easy, too.

Only the very young or the very arrogant would be so presumptuous as to make a statement of their beliefs to someone who is in need of comfort. You don't have the right to be gratuitously rude to anyone, nor do you have the right to deliver a self justifying lecture to anyone who happens to say something you don't agree with.

It's called a "white lie" for a reason. You have no intention of following through, dolt. No one is trying to "make" you do anything. If a person is distraught, then you listen, make the correct noises, make your excuses and LEAVE THE ROOM.

As for the pork example, give me a break. The correct thing to do in that situation is simply not to take any. Duh. I suppose you'd feel justified in tossing the offending food item on the ground, stomping on it and maybe peeing on it just to make your point. Yeesh.

If you're going to take offense at every little thing that strikes you as "off" in some way, you're in for a tough time of it. The world doesn't rotate around your preferences, nor should it. Hunting for offense, which is what your pork example is about, is a waste of energy.

My supervisor is devoutly religious and has had some rough times over the past couple of years, so I've had a number of occasions to consider this issue. My late grandmother ran an email prayer chain for members of her church and their various loved ones for several years. Even though I'm a rather determined agnostic and otherwise extremely annoyed by people who try to insert their religious beliefs into my life, I'll still say a prayer for anyone who requests it. My grandma would expect no less, for one; for another, it might do some good for the recipient. Might not. Either way, I've provided someone with a little bit of comfort, and there isn't enough of that to go around.

You could always mention that study that showed that ill people faired worse when they knew someone was praying for them.....

MessyONE:

Because it's polite. That's the reason for any social lie. I repeat: Because its polite. Someone who is going through and emotionally trying time doesn't care a fig for what you think, and rightfully so. All you are required to do is make them feel better.

Uh-oh... Aunt Messy is being naughty again and poking at the hornet's nest with a stick. I suspect you're going to invite the ire of a great many very sincere people who will look you in the (virtual) eye and tell you they never, ever lie. They are completely full of shit, of course. Everybody lies - which is probably a good thing since if nobody did, everybody would commit murder and mayhem instead.

What I have a hard time understanding is how this clown can possibly make such a big deal out of this. In the grand scheme of things it is hardly worth giving a second thought, much less sending an angst-ridden missive to an advice columnist. I mean think about it... We live in a "culture" in which a 16-year old girl can become a billionaire nearly overnight by fastening her face and her Disney-created nom de plume on virtually everything that little girls might buy - including their underwear - at the same time that millions of people are losing their homes and going bankrupt. If you really have some twisted need to torment yourself over life's incomprehensible inequities, it seems to me there are far more serious (and even terrifying) things to get worked up about than whether saying a prayer (or even just saying you will) for someone who will be comforted by it when you are an avowed athiest is morally reprehensible.

Hannah Montana is morally reprehensible. Athiests saying prayers, however insincere, doesn't even come close...

Wasn't this like a 30 second conversation? Couldn't the atheist just respond to her request by saying 'I sure will' and be done with it? If you don't want to discuss being an atheist, don't put yourself in a position of having to defend it to someone who is a believer. Especially since you know that most believers can't condone atheism and will feel duty-bound to convert you. Give a quick "I sure will" and go on with your life. It's not like there's a test later to see if you actually prayed.

Everybody lies. To other people, to themselves, to the general public....everybody, without exception, lies.

Not only that, they all know it. And so do we. It's actually all right. No one could, or would want to, hear the truth all of the time, anyway. If they say they would, they're lying. Let's face it, no one wants to know that the pants really DO make them look like their butt is the size of a refrigerator, do they?

You know me, big guy. If someone asks my opinion outright, they're going to get it. Whether they like what they'll hear isn't my problem.

That said, I would never knowingly hurt someone gratuitously.

MessyONE:

Everybody lies. To other people, to themselves, to the general public....everybody, without exception, lies. Not only that, they all know it. And so do we. It's actually all right. No one could, or would want to, hear the truth all of the time, anyway. If they say they would, they're lying. Let's face it, no one wants to know that the pants really DO make them look like their butt is the size of a refrigerator, do they? You know me, big guy. If someone asks my opinion outright, they're going to get it. Whether they like what they'll hear isn't my problem. That said, I would never knowingly hurt someone gratuitously.

Of course everybody lies. We lie so often, half the time we're not even aware that we're doing it. The pants example is wonderful. It illustrates the point perfectly. Once, many years ago when I was young and knew everything I got fed up with the ex-wife whining that the only thing she couldn't forgive was a lie, that if I just always spoke the truth to her all would be well between us. This, of course, was a monstrous lie on her part, but being young I reacted before I'd thought about it enough to realize that. In any case, I decided to test the theory about an hour later when she traipsed into the room wearing an outfit from high school days that had been too tight by most community standards when she was 20 years younger and forty pounds lighter and asked me, "Honey, does this outfit make me look fat?". The unvarnished Truth, which I promptly delivered up to her, was, "No, darlin'... The outfit doesn't make you look fat. Your diet makes you look fat. The outfit just makes you look silly".

Turned out the Truth was a BIG Mistake. All was certainly not well between us for the better part of three weeks. The only bright note was that I slept much better on the couch where her snoring didn't keep me awake and nobody kept stealing the pillows right out from under my head. I wisely refrained, however, from sharing any part of that Great Truth with her... and compounded that lie-by-omission with the lie-by-pretense that I was contrite and apologetic. This was less to spare her feelings than to avoid idiotic conflict. Mea culpa.

I don't hurt people gratuitously either. When I offend, it is usually carefully considered, well thought out and quite deliberate. Way too many of these LWs are simply using Prudie's advice column as a smokescreen to cover up the intentional public humiliation of someone who irritated them. They are not looking for advice and will ignore any they get... but they'll make damn sure the person they were complaining about reads the letter and knows who sent it. It's petty, manipulative, vindictive and banal - and should not go unanswered. And generally doesn't.