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Before you "cry foul" for Clinton on Michigan and Florida...
by hawaiimike

Ask yourself an honest hypothetical question. If Hillary had the delegate lead Obama has now, and if it were Illinois and Virginia that had violated party rules, would Hillary still be fighting for every vote to be counted at this juncture?




Before you sing the praises of
by Gatewood
Saint Obama ask yourself an honest hypothetical question. If Hillary had the delegate lead Obama has now, and if it were Illinois and Virginia that had violated party rules, would Obama be fighting for every vote to be counted at this juncture instead of trying to disenfranchise vast voting blocks of the Democratic Party?
Take your meds!
by Miande
Any "disenfranchisment" was performed by the state Democratic parties of Florda and Michigan, not Obama. They wound up with far more representation to the convention than they deserved.
Re: Take your meds!
by hawaiimike

Correct Miandre.

And the sarcastic nastiness of Hillary supporters or Obama haters is getting very old. I treat Hillary with respect as a leader, and you should have some respect for Obama for having the beliefs and visions that will only strengthen the democratic message and agenda.



Re: Take your meds!
by eofiss

If Sen. Clinton had any actual concern about "disenfranchisement," she would have said something about it in 2007. If she had opposed the sanction when it was being voted on, or refused to sign the pledge, or even said, "I'm still on the MI ballot because I think their votes should count," I would support her effort.

Now, though, there is no way to separate this issue from her self-interest. I really hope she doesn't take this to the convention. The sanction now is the same as the Republicans'

Re: Take your meds!
by Marcia Gerber

eofiss

I agree - If Senator Clinton actually cared about the voters (and votes) of MI, she should have spoken up. If she thought it was important enough to have her name on that ballot than the names of Obama, Edwards, Richardson, etc. should also have been on that ballot. Not all votes were for Clinton (assumed for her) or uncommitted (or all of them hers now that the DNC committee has had to meet). Hillary Clinton kept her name on that ballot for one reason and one reason only - to benefit herself, cause the demonstrations on Saturday, May 31 and cause more problems. She is a very deceitful, hateful and vicious person.

Re: Take your meds!
by unora

It seems to me that this is a straight-forward Political Question -- that is, there is no morally correct answer, but only one that suits the political exigencies of the people involved. There is no question that if Obama were behind and it was instead Virginia and Illinois’ votes that weren’t being counted, his supporters would complain about unfairness in the political process, while Clinton’s would argue that it was all perfectly aboveboard, and all of this would be justified.

It’s like all Political Questions in that sense -- Bush v. Gore (loathe as we Dems are to admit it) is another one. Is there any doubt that if J. Kennedy had swung the other way, the Republicans would have cried foul and we would have been rapidly justifying the decision? Hardly. That’s why it’s so frustrating to read the debate here on Slate and elsewhere -- it’s nearly impossible to discern the rational argument from the blazing partisanship. It’s like a science experiment where the results are molded to support the hypothesis without regard to any objective viewpoint.

Personally, I am an Obama supporter, ish. I’d say a “hundred dollar” supporter -- I like him, I was moved enough by his Rev Wright speech to donate $100 bucks, but I’m not breaking the bank. Still, and despite the general reservations that I share with many about Clinton, I find this whole primaries scenario extremely troubling. I certainly don’t consider Obama to blame -- he’s doing exactly what anyone would do. But that doesn’t make it less troubling.


Most troubling, to my mind, has been the consistent call for Clinton to declare defeat. These calls obviously make more sense as time goes by, but they’ve been going on for months now, with many primaries still at stake. The whole reason we are in this mess to begin with is that Michigan and Florida wanted to go early in the primary season because they were worried that the late primaries don’t really count. In refusing to allow them to do that, the DNC was essentially (if not explicitly) saying, “No no, you wait your turn, don’t worry, your votes will count, too.” But if anything, these calls for Clinton to quit merely justify the decisions by those states. If, in the closest primary we’ll probably ever see, the last ten to fifteen states simply don’t matter, then we’re basically admitting that they will *never* matter. Why shouldn’t states want to move up if, even in the midst of a near dead heat, we don’t want to count their votes?

This is also troubling because, as in the aforementioned Bush v. Gore scenario, the clarion call of Democrats was “what’s the rush?” The Republicans wanted that vote wrapped up for the sake of “closure,” because the country couldn’t function with all the “uncertainty,” while the Democrats kept arguing, hey, we have plenty of time, the important thing is to get it right. We've completely forgotten that mantra, all for the sake of a desired result. And of course, I’m hardly the first to point out that it’s troubling that Democrats who were so keen to have every vote counted then have backed away from that now.

I think it’s also really troubling that the DNC had no plans for this contingency. We mock the administration all the time for its lack of foresight, particularly with respect to Iraq. But in January the DNC essentially said, well, let’s not solve this problem now, let’s just hope it doesn’t blow up in our faces. Oops.

So, is Clinton making it difficult to move to the next stage of this thing by fighting on? Probably. (Though there is an argument that All Press for the Dems is Good Press.) But Obama supporters, and even we Obama-ish supporters, could make it easier by taking a deep breath, letting go of the fear that it will come unraveled, and just waiting until it’s done.
Re: Before you "cry foul" for Clinton on Michigan and Florida...
by Dijuu

I think it's not only smart of Hilary Clinton to ask for it but it's smart for them ALL to have to do it. I still don't trust the electoral process since the last 2 disasterous presidential elections.

The entire country is in sad shape now and I think it's time for the revolution to begin!

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