Personally, I think Obama's a hypocrite, so his association with Trinity United church doesn't bother me that much. I suspect he's just a secular guy who is cynically masquerading as a man of faith in order to win some easy support from credulous religious folks. He'd hardly be the first politician to adopt such a pose as a cheap way to win votes and foot soldiers.

If I'm right, then Obama's disgusting taste in churches and spiritual advisers is only of peripheral importance. After all, if he saw churches and religious leaders as nothing but campaign accessories and stage props for his political ambitions, no more important than picking a visual for the backdrop to a speech, or choosing what color tie to wear at a debate, then it makes sense that he wouldn't have paid terribly close attention to the ideas coming out of them, meaning we needn't brand Obama guilty by association.

People's poor judgment in matters they consider unimportant is vastly less of a concern than such poor judgment would be if it were in regard to some matter they really valued and thought about carefully. If Obama is only pretending to care about religion, then we can reasonably hold out hope that his judgment in choosing advisers and associates will be better on matters that he actually cares about, once in office (like selecting a cabinet).

Since I suspect Obama is a religious poseur, his bad taste on that front troubles me only about as much as if he'd picked a particularly ugly tie to wear to an important debate. We have enough evidence now to realize that Trinity United Church was a nut house, with bat-shit-crazy sermons and a congregation that cheers madly at the most offensive material coming from the pulpit (listen to the background noise in the Pflager and Wright clips). Those were the people Obama chose to associate himself with. But that needn't worry us too much, so long as we believe Obama considers religion to be too trivial to have noticed such things. If he spent his Sundays with his mind wandering to more important matters, while his body put in the obligatory appearances at Trinity United Church for purposes of political expedience, then he might well have remained blissfully unaware that he was surrounded by a congregation packed full of racists and lunatics.

However, I'll admit it's possible I'm wrong. It's possible that Obama isn't just cynically manipulating religious folks by pretending he cares about his supposed faith. It's possible he felt some real spiritual connection to that congregation of wackos, rather than just shrewdly using them for cheap political advantage in his rise to prominence in Chicago politics. It's possible he really does consider religion to be a deeply important thing, as he claims, and that he spent his Sundays listening closely and thinking deeply about what was going on at the church. If so, he would, indeed, be guilty by association. It is, by far, the more horrible possibility. If Obama isn't a poseur and a hypocrite, then he's a monster. I leave it to everyone here to decide which is the case, but I strongly believe he's merely a hypocrite.

Like you I also believe that Obama is a religious fake and that is a very good thing (since I'm agnostic and don't trust anyone that is a 'true' believer!).

So lets hope that Obama only pretends to believe in voodoo and myths unlike the current nut case in the White House who is a true believer.

Really, if Obama believes in crap like the rapture his followers cannot claim he is a 'smart' guy.

Your right. Obama is either a nut or a liar and probably both.

We've heard him say that he wasn't in the church when Wright preached his hateful messages. That is a proven lie.

We've heard him say that people hold on to religious beliefs and guns because they don't have enough money. While it true that poor people have religious belief I don't think because of a lack of money. Fake religion.

He wanted to invade our allie Pakistan. Lack of political knowledge and judgment.

He is truly the wrong choice for leader of the free world.

Was Bush a "real" Christian?

Evidence?

He wanted to invade our allie Pakistan. Lack of political knowledge and judgment.

******************************­******************************­**********

Actually, no. He said he'd go into Pakistan to take out Al Qaeda if Pakistani govt dragged feet on co-operating.

Which is EXACTLY what the current govt did just weeks later when they pin-pointed where some Al Qaeda big-wig was, and they got him with a surgical air-strike without waiting around for Pakistani govt to give permission. It IS nice when they occasionally listen to good sense!

BTW, Obama has also repeatedly warned Bush govt not to put all their eggs in the Musharaf basket, given how unpopular Musharaf was in the country itself. On that occasion they didn't listen -- and now, of course, Musharaf's gotten badly battered in the elections and is a lame duck in Pakistan, and the new 'powers' aren't inclined to carry on the alliances Musharaf forged.

Alas, if Bush had 1/10th of Obama's understanding of the realitiies of the world, US foreign policy might note look like the disaster it currently does....

Your statement would apply to almost every President that we have ever had.

It is the truth that we dare not speak. You must be a daredevil.

;-)

GWB is a real Christian since he believes in much of the bogus Christian myths.

GWB has said so and I have no reason to doubt him.

YES, I understand what you mean by "real", but I'm not buying it (that "real" ones wouldn't do the actions that GWB did, but that is just BS, the actions of real religious people are often negative and evil actions).

konark_girl:

He wanted to invade our allie Pakistan. Lack of political knowledge and judgment.

******************************­******************************­**********

Actually, no. He said he'd go into Pakistan to take out Al Qaeda if Pakistani govt dragged feet on co-operating.

Which is EXACTLY what the current govt did just weeks later when they pin-pointed where some Al Qaeda big-wig was, and they got him with a surgical air-strike without waiting around for Pakistani govt to give permission. It IS nice when they occasionally listen to good sense!

BTW, Obama has also repeatedly warned Bush govt not to put all their eggs in the Musharaf basket, given how unpopular Musharaf was in the country itself. On that occasion they didn't listen -- and now, of course, Musharaf's gotten badly battered in the elections and is a lame duck in Pakistan, and the new 'powers' aren't inclined to carry on the alliances Musharaf forged.

Alas, if Bush had 1/10th of Obama's understanding of the realitiies of the world, US foreign policy might note look like the disaster it currently does....

Actually, he said he would invade Pakistan.

BTW...Bush has nothing to do with a discussion of Obama. Your comparisons may make you feel a little better but they are valueless.

I was thinking the same thing about McCain who rejected Hagee's endorsement after actively seeking it and enthusiastically accepting it until recently.

What gives with these politicians?

I found that “people hold on to religious beliefs and guns because they don't have enough money” quote curious. What is he going to do, give them money or jobs so that they’ll give up there guns and be relieved of the burden of religion? I mean that seems like the unstated drift of the statement. 'We're gonna create jobs and entitlement programs so that you don't need to hold on to guns and religion anymore!'

Elitist? Nahhh, not much.

Probably just an unfortunate choice of words but he's supposed to be the smart one, right?

G

I think that part of the problem is that mainstream America generally just assumes that separation of church and state is a reciprocal relationship. They assume that while government keeps religion out of government, most religions keep government and politics out of religion as well. Those that don’t are swept to the margins and not taken seriously (or there adherents).

Enter Barak Obama. Now here’s a guy who is about as mainstream as a black man can get except for that one little detail of the radial black centric church he belongs to.

I think what is shocking to most is not only did Obama belong to such a church, but that they exist at all in the first place. While many non-blacks in the main stream have dutifully and happily been attending services each week and getting their spiritual as well as social needs met, and have been assuming that the majority of church going folks of any stripe are doing the same. Lo and behold they find out that on the other side of town a whole different scenario was taking place, and politics, and radical black politics at that, is being more than a little bit mixed in with the spiritual pep talk. How could this be happening right under our noses for so many years, they now ask? And now, just when they thought they had a viable black candidate, to boot. And if a seemingly mainstream black man who has made it as far as becoming a Senator of the United States can be a member of such a church then what does that say about the average black man on the street? How wide spread is this black radicalism, they ask? Probably pretty wide spread, they likely answer. And that is what likely scares a lot of them. That, and that one of them might actually become President.

Now it is probably like you say and Obama was more than likely only a political opportunist member of the church, as it is fairly common knowledge that to get anywhere in black Chicago politics you need the backing of a reasonably powerful black church. But that doesn’t flatter Obama either and calls his character into question on another level. Unfortunately for him, it’s a lose, lose, situation which ever way they slice it. While that opportunism is probably no worse that any of the other’s opportunism in their careers, the black radicalism will make it seem much worse. In reality, he probably didn’t have any viable alternatives considering Chicago politics, and Black Chicago politics, at that.

G

At the Zen Center I went to, almost everyone there was way to the left of me. Politics wasn't discussed all that often, but it was discussed, and when it was, it was often something I disagreed with. It didn't matter: I didn't need to share the weird deep ecology of my teacher to get something out of it.

Similarly, when I was in high school, the white evangelical church I went to with my family was well to the right of me, and I had a whole different complicated reaction to the politics discussed in the mostly black church I went to with a friend from school.

Monster and hypocrite are not the only possibilities. It's possible that Obama has sincere faith and feels "some real spiritual connection" to that church, while living with his political differences with it.

Nanotech:

BTW...Bush has nothing to do with a discussion of Obama. Your comparisons may make you feel a little better but they are valueless.

Why? The question is on the "genuine faith" of a Presidential candidate....shouldn't that be compared to the present President's?

About the poor people. They don't cling pathetically to god and guns because they're poor. But they cling to guns and god for the same reason that they are poor. It's because, let's be honest here, they're not very bright. So they get ripped off again and again by preachers and politicians and pretty much everybody with a three digit iq.