The problem is that their morals are such that most Americans don't agree. As is typical, though, Liberals can't accept that they hold the minority view because it's wrong. It must be the people who have not been communicated to well, or who have been suckered by the Conservatives (who are both terribly stupid, and cunning, all at the same time).

This is the ultimate Liberal ethic: They are smarter than you, and if they could only find a way to reach you, as a teacher might reach a child, then surely you'd agree with them.

The problem is that their morals are such that most Americans don't agree. As is typical, though, Liberals can't accept that they hold the minority view because it's wrong.

Are morals subject to popular opinion? I would call that a pretty subjective and relative conception of morality.

Liberals do this all the time. They think they are enlightened and that you would see things there way if you had an open mind. Liberals claim they are tolerant but do not tolerate views opposed to their own. Universities are great examples of liberal totalitarianism. Liberals cannot grasp the concept of absolute value thus all their own values are relative and rely on context.

gunsmoke:

Liberals do this all the time. They think they are enlightened and that you would see things there way if you had an open mind. Liberals claim they are tolerant but do not tolerate views opposed to their own. Universities are great examples of liberal totalitarianism. Liberals cannot grasp the concept of absolute value thus all their own values are relative and rely on context.

Do you have a university education? I don't remember this being the case where I went to school, but then again, I went to a public university in Texas.

The thing about both liberals and conservatives is that we both embrace conformity in our own way. Liberals would like everybody to drive subcompact hybrids and live in dense neighborhoods and willingly give up a portion of their income for the poor and oppressed. Conservatives would like everyone to go to church on Sunday, support and respect religious iconography on public property, screw heterosexually, and hate the galderned terrorists with the proper level of patriotic disdain.

I consider myself to be a liberal, but I'm pretty sympathetic to libertarianism, which is really far more enlightened than either the Democratic or the Republican Parties would care to admit.

Anse:

gunsmoke:

Liberals do this all the time. They think they are enlightened and that you would see things there way if you had an open mind. Liberals claim they are tolerant but do not tolerate views opposed to their own. Universities are great examples of liberal totalitarianism. Liberals cannot grasp the concept of absolute value thus all their own values are relative and rely on context.

Do you have a university education? I don't remember this being the case where I went to school, but then again, I went to a public university in Texas.

The thing about both liberals and conservatives is that we both embrace conformity in our own way. Liberals would like everybody to drive subcompact hybrids and live in dense neighborhoods and willingly give up a portion of their income for the poor and oppressed. Conservatives would like everyone to go to church on Sunday, support and respect religious iconography on public property, screw heterosexually, and hate the galderned terrorists with the proper level of patriotic disdain.

I consider myself to be a liberal, but I'm pretty sympathetic to libertarianism, which is really far more enlightened than either the Democratic or the Republican Parties would care to admit.

Anse,

You won't find Gunsmoke's view in a college text (even in Texas) . That dosent make his statement inaccurate (you can write volumes of what they don't print in textbooks or news papers).

I too went to a public University in Texas (East Texas State University nka Texas A&M Commerce) and before that a private Jr. College (New Mexico Military Institute).

I happen to agree with most of what Gunsmoke said I see many of the same thing in Liberals as he does.

Sorry, don't see it. I attended Texas State University in San Marcos (back when it was still called Southwest Texas State). I spent a year at the more-conservative Texas Tech my freshman year. Spent lots of time on the UT campus in Austin. I saw protests by pro-choice groups, anti-abortion groups, Christian student groups, socialist student groups...you name it.

The problem isn't political ideology. It's just a poor grasp of rhetorical technique and sensible argumentation. You don't have to be a liberal or a conservative to have foolish ideas when it comes to public discourse.

What are you, dense? It's called a "culture", which is built upon "mores" and "codes" and other such. There have been all sorts of cultures with all sorts of morals, so obviously morality is a function of what society is willing to tolerate. Why would that be difficult to grasp? I really can't believe you even asked that question.

Gunsmoke is correct.

When a Conservative is caught doing something immoral Conservatives point with sober condemnation while Liberals point with gleeful condemnation.

When a Liberal is caught doing something immoral the Conservatives point with gleeful condemnation While the Liberals start explaining why "in this case" and "because of these factors" and "in light of thus and such" this person is really justified, or perhaps a victim.

FaxMeBeer:

What are you, dense? It's called a "culture", which is built upon "mores" and "codes" and other such. There have been all sorts of cultures with all sorts of morals, so obviously morality is a function of what society is willing to tolerate. Why would that be difficult to grasp? I really can't believe you even asked that question.

If morality is subject to popular approval, then the conservatives are wrong: there is no absolute sense of morality. There is only what the majority feels in any given generation. That's moral relativism.

It's a pretty far cry from the absolutism of Christian fundamentalism, that's for sure.

When a Liberal is caught doing something immoral the Conservatives point with gleeful condemnation While the Liberals start explaining why "in this case" and "because of these factors" and "in light of thus and such" this person is really justified, or perhaps a victim.

Doesn't that pretty well describe how conservatives explain our support for Saddam Hussein, Augusto Pinochet, Afghani fighters which became the Taliban, friendship with China while we condemn Cuba...?

Liberals and conservatives actually share a shocking number of moral values. Personal liberty, the importance of family, contributing to one's community, the importance of education, freedom of expression, work ethic, the need for the country to defend itself, the need for the country to create positive change in the world.

Where they differ is on how they define these virtues, and what they think the government's role should be in promoting them.

I agree that college tends to be a hostile environment for conservatives. I think it's a product of the age group and pack mentality. I think the role of professors and the universities themselves is overstated. That there are liberals who are intolerant of conservatives is not news or insight. The question is whether their hypocrisy invalidates the concept of tolerance. I don't think it does, any more than a Congressman who preaches fidelity invalidates that concept by being caught cheating.

I also agree that liberals tend to be more relativist. Human history shows us that right and wrong have depended enormously on culture and context, and have evolved over time. But there are plenty of religious liberals, they just aren't obsessing about other people's behavior in the same way. This gets back to the morality question - even if we accept certain values as absolute, we'll disagree in how we pursue them. If we say "contributing to the community" is an absolute value, a conservative may mean working in a church's soup kitchen, a liberal may mean taxing the rich to support the poor, a libertarian may mean creating a company that creates jobs.

The media like having us at each other's throats, but we actually all want to create a better life for ourselves, our neighbors, and our children. But getting people pissed off gets more viewers and more ad revenue, so that's where we're headed.

It's also a long way from the sort of a-moral situation most Liberals are working toward (at least from a Christian view). This country is middle-right in nearly all things, morality included.

Religious conservatives believe that their "morality" should apply to everyone. They believe we should deny equal rights to gays because their mythology says it's a sin. They believe that we shouldn't teach evolution in public schools because it proves that the Biblical creation story is a myth. They say we need prayer in schools but only Christian prayer. They believe war with the middle east is justified because muslims are "infedels" and were going to have armageddon over there somewhere soon anyway. They believe that they should be able to have the ten commandments in our courthouses or nativity scenes in public places and that not allowing these things amounts to a war on their religion.

Liberals aren't perfect either but we are a hell of a lot more tolerant. We generally don't care what Christians or others believe, we just don't think it should be the basis for laws that affect us all.

FaxMeBeer:

It's also a long way from the sort of a-moral situation most Liberals are working toward (at least from a Christian view). This country is middle-right in nearly all things, morality included.

Rational secularism isn't amoral. It's perfectly rational, perfectly defensible, and totally necessary.

Aside from environmental regulations and taxation, on most social issues, all liberals want is to be left alone: leave us alone to smoke dope, leave us alone to screw who we want as often as we want, leave public property free of permanent religious displays...in other words, just leave us alone. Conservatives would tell us who to screw, what we can put in our own bodies, and would shove Christian icons down our throats on property that legally belongs to all people. These are not amoral positions. Libertarians embrace virtually the same point of view.

Libertarians are also in the minority. Personally, I don't care who you screw in the privacy of your own home any more than you care about who I screw in mine. But liberals have such a knee-jerk reaction to anything religious, and then they wonder why conservatives call them immoral. Why can't you leave us alone? Why can't you let us be religious? Why do you insist that our children MUST learn something in schools that violate our religious principals, and then tell us we're wack-jobs if we don't like it? The REAL reason that we reject evolution is that it doesn't make any sense. Life came from nothing because it felt like it? And you think I believe in a fairy tale! Genesis makes more sense than THAT, and yet if I subscribe to Genesis you'll take me to court and have some liberal judge issue a 130 page decision telling me why I'm wrong! Now who's butting into who's life?????