Does this not even deserve a mention? I believe it happens far more than anyone believes.

In small towns and large. Women who are fit and beautiful, as well as those who are not. Young and old. Racial lines don't matter.

But many, many married women often go through a deeply passionate and profoundly transformative experience of falling in love with another woman.

There are hundreds of layers and room for vast differences of why, how and when.

There is also room for stereotypical jokes and ribald asides.

But in this whole XX Factor blog it doesn't get a mention.

It was a deep, meaningful (if painful) experience for me. My family adapted, coped and eventually reconstituted with more love, understanding and authenticity. We're very fortunate.

But there is something powerful and alluring and, to me, almost necessary about a woman experiencing this. Whether or not she happens to be married. Or gay.

So - that is just my thought on it. Technically it is "cheating" but in many ways it was for me about finding aspects of myself that I never even knew were missing. Maybe that is also part of having a hetero affair.

But there is something powerful and alluring and, to me, almost necessary about a woman experiencing this. Whether or not she happens to be married. Or gay.

Wow. I don't know what to say about this. I actually was going on in another thread yesterday about how the scores of women lusting after other women was a hetero male fantasy. Obviously your experience is different than mine. I'm curious why you feel this way, though. Do you think it is due to how profound the experience was for you? Personally, I'm hetero and while I (like most people these days probably) have asked myself if there was a possibility I could ever be interested in women, the answer was a pretty easy no. I can't fathom what benefit someone like me would get from this.

It makes sense that we find ourselves through the relationships that we explore. But if the implication is that within a strict framework like a marriage that we can lose our identities

Now, it would be a wonderful thing for me to fall in love with myself. It's kind of hard living in the body of someone you're not too keen on!

Wow. I don't know what to say about this. I actually was going on in another thread yesterday about how the scores of women lusting after other women was a hetero male fantasy.

I agree - I think it is a hetero male fantasy in a broad way. But in my personal experience I'm SURE mine didn't fit that! :) Neither of us is Jennifer Anniston or Courteny Cox!

Obviously your experience is different than mine. I'm curious why you feel this way, though. Do you think it is due to how profound the experience was for you?

I'm sure that's why I feel it was profound and can be seen as necessary. I think many women (myself included) have such a difficult time accepting her Self, her feminine incarnation, that we often separate out from our lives our actual body experiences. As best we can. And, as a result our lives often feel truncated and fragmented. Falling in love with a woman (and again it wasn't with "women" but with a particular woman) led me into a deep, personal relationship with my own body - through love, through sex, through physical contact with HER, that I had never had before. And I was a mother at the time, married and in many ways happy and satisfied. It took me by HUGE surprise. Especially the depth of my feelings. As well as the havoc I could see it wreaking on my family.

Personally, I'm hetero and while I (like most people these days probably) have asked myself if there was a possibility I could ever be interested in women, the answer was a pretty easy no. I can't fathom what benefit someone like me would get from this.

I don't think anyone should go out looking for it - in order to get something! So under your current self-awareness you probably wouldn't get the same benefit I did. But should you one day feel a deep disconnection with your true self, with your essence as a human being, a female human being, you may find yourself faced with the choice. I think falling in love with someone includes a LOT of choice!! I wasn't a victim of cupid! I chose to move forward into the relationship. Better or worse it was my choice. Maybe that is also why it worked so much benefit for me.

It makes sense that we find ourselves through the relationships that we explore. But if the implication is that within a strict framework like a marriage that we can lose our identities

I don't think I so much lost my identity in my marriage, but I think I had built my adult life on a sandy foundation that was shifting rapidly in my thirties. I did not have a strong sense of the strength of, or a positive association with, being a woman. I built my marriage and parenting on more of a role identity, not a person incarnated in a body. As the stresses increased I wasn't able to hold my "structure" together so well.

Now, it would be a wonderful thing for me to fall in love with myself. It's kind of hard living in the body of someone you're not too keen on!

Very profound, deduction! I think that is exactly what I did! I fell in love with a woman who had all these amazing qualities that I perceived that I lacked. In loving her (body and soul) I re-membered myself, re-attached these qualities in ways that had been lost since my childhood.

I still have a great regard for this woman. And I dont' regret the experience at all.

But I do think I am now married to my husband as more of a whole human being than I was before. And that is extremely satisfying and wonderful.

Never been a fantasy of this hetero male....I can see a guy fantasizing about two women having sex with HIM, one for each arm.

I wonder if most are not creative enough, or have sufficient imagination, or the desire even. to come up with most of the sex fantasies and quirkiness we see and hear. I have speculated a few original characters in history were responsible for introducing almost all of it, it just keeps getting passed generation after generation with updates, like we do with jokes and superstitions, and we sort of laugh and nod wisely, since everybody else seems to think it cool.

As usual, I am a regular reader but seldom have had the 'courage' to respond. For background: heter male w/ 2 sons and a product of the 'sensitive male' upbringing during the 70s -- when I married my wife, 'K'. I was the rebound guy from her first serious girl/girl relationship; I knew going that she had 'tendencies' but she and were in love and we knew we were for each... move forward to 20 years into the marriage; she: possible post baby blues depression; me: struggling to be a freelance artist and turning to a 'internet porn addiction'; she: finds a sympathic lesbian co-worker (in a committed relationship) and that leads to my wife ready to run off w/ LCWIACR; long and short: a very bad experience for my wife - she is the other women and LCW's partner is angry at my wife. 'K' has had a lot of issues with abandonment, rejection, etc. As you two have said, there was a sense of lost femininity. 'K' said she likes the company of women but then hates it too. Her words, 'it was like I was trying to capture some of her womanlyness for myself." But in the end, 'K' did not want to have any connection with LCW. I know a lot of Slate readers loath most christian beliefs but for us, that was what kept us together. The church we were with was no help. We ended up joining another and it was that church that brought us together. Funny how this conversation has started because at this very moment, 'K' is considering leaving said church now. Not because she is having an affair but because she feels she has been lied to, by another woman! I'm not saying I am without blame. Friends and members of said church have blamed me for allowing her to stray so far! But, in my heart, I knew that nothing I could say or do would change what 'K' was going to do. I gave her room to leave or stay. Even if she had left, I told her I would take her back. As you said, your marriage is better now. We are working on our marriage as all marriages should be worked on daily. Does she still struggle? Oh, yes. It was easier for me to give up a fantasy sex life than for her to give up a real experience. Does she regret marrying me and having children? Probably but each day I give her a little more reason not to regret it. A lot of times I forget myself so that she feels more important and worthy. She returns the compliments - the most touching was during a crisis in her family that she told me, 'I could not imagine going through this with anyone else but you!" It still touches my heart to hear those words in my head. But to answer the original question of why - there are some things that a man cannot and can never give to a woman. She goes and seeks those things, (emotional, relational, etc.) Hopefully, she finds them in a appropriate manner, that is, not in an extra-marital affair. 'K' has found appropriate relationships with women, just not in a sexual way. When she needs 'girls night' I gladly cheer her on. It is scary for me though, if we do leave this current church, that she will lose her girl friends. It does take her a while to make friends. This is just my experience. I hope I have not made any sweeping generalizations. Just, I'm glad your marriage is stronger. Keep working at it and don't ever take each for granted. Build each other up by speaking positive words. Be accountable to each other - 'K' always checks in with me. I've never asked her to do it, but she always calls when she is away. I know she is doing that to keep the trust.

Blessings!!

artandsoul, did you have a poor relationship with your mother?

Dear Mr. J -

I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of your response, the delicacy with which you treated your situation and the hope you bring into your relationship. It was my wish in posting that someone who maybe had a similar experience, or was wondering about these experiences, would hear that in my post.

I do believe that the good, strong, long-lasting marriages take a lot of work. And it is worth the work to me. Just like work on myself. The work of raising a family. And so on.

When I was going through the reconstitution of my marriage I was also experimenting with glass mosaic art work. I never have mastered the precision cutting wheel, but what I did do a lot of was take sheets of colored glass and break them with one big bang on the table. The resulting shards always seemed to lend themselves to the piece I was working on, and I could (for the most part) find exactly what I needed.

This ended up becoming a profound metaphor for my experience. I could hear some voice in me saying "Don't be afraid of the break" ... and so when it comes time for any break in my life, I remember that. And I know that endings are a vital part of life. And that my marriage can have many metaphorical endings, and beginnings, without us having to dissolve our union or separate forever.

I also found what I needed. Always. It has led me to a deeper trusting of the Universe and the abundance therein. Small pieces, sharp pieces, curved pieces and extraordinarily strange pieces - each day is served up in whatever shape I really need. With an intelligence far beyond my own.

I often compare my thought capacity to that of a ring box. And the Universe (God, Higher Power...) can provide for me from the vastness of infinity. THAT is the difference between me "knowing" what I want and the Universe providing me with exactly what I want!

Anyway, I wish for you both some of the peace and much of the joy that I have found. And I encourage you to keep trusting that the abundance of the world around you IS available!

Take care. And again, thanks for the thoughtful post.

Great! I love metaphors! Ours was dancing. While she was going between me and LCW, we took dancing lessons. If anyone has taken dance, the man has to lead. It took a lot on 'K' to give up leading and it took a lot on my part to take the lead. Manhood lesson one: take the lead!! Once she let go, we were able to 'dance together'. It took a lot of courage on both our self-images to assume 'traditonal' roles but it worked for us. Also, the dance hall was about an hour so we could talk and share. Whew! Some of the conversations we had! "Just because you stick your p--- in me doesn't mean I'm not gay!" or my favorite, "I have two people vying for my attention and I'm f---ing enjoying it!" Of course, now, "K' would probably forget she said those things. But my advice for the men, let her vent and don't offer advice unless you are asked (going on 22 years in June!)

BTW - yes 'K' had a rocky relationship with her mom, as well as me. A lot of hurt and injury to go around. Her mom was sharing intimacies with that, looking back, were probably not appropriate for a pre-teen to hear from her mom. Also to complicate things, 'K' had a mentally challenged brother that her mom focused her attention on. It is still a challenge for 'K' but she is tougher with her mom now that she has set up boundaries.

Blessings and going to the next level!

wayhey -- that's a good question!

I don't think I realized how complicated and distant my relationship with my mother was until I was about 35. I was pretty clueless about a lot of things.

Then through about 15 years of Jungian analysis, dreamwork, bodywork, therapy, etc etc etc I found out a lot of things about myself. And my mom. And my dad. No blame, just a deeper understanding.

I think what really complicated my relationship with my mother is that she had/has a lot of fear. And my being a girl really constellated her fears. "oh no, she's going to have such a difficult life" rather than "Oh great! A baby girl" ... and that kind of viewpoint from my mother definitely colored my life.

She and my dad live about 2 miles from me, I see them often. I care for them, take them to doctors, etc. I love them dearly.

It's complicated!! :) But I think it was definitely part of what I was working out. For me it was part of it. Maybe not for everyone.

My wife - we're separated at the moment, but reconciling - is bisexual and she had an unfortunate relationship with her mother growing up and especially during her teen years. I think that her mother felt similar to yours, although her parents divorced when she was 11 and she doesn't have much contact with her. I do agree that different people have different reasons, and that this factor is only true for some.

Wayhey - I wish you all the best!! We were separated for a few years and our marriage is now stronger than ever. It is possible, and it is very satisfying for all of us that we came through this.

I do think there are some serious issues in the area of "mothers" - yes, with our personal, real-life mothers. But more with the internalized "mother" that we picked up, integrated inside and spend all our lives arguing with and tangling with. That is how I see it for me.

I think my real-life mother did the best she could.

Unfortunately for me it was very damaging. I never really felt that deep satisfaction and groundedness with being a woman. I felt, early early early that it would have been better if I had been a boy - like my brother.

Nature or nurture as to the issue of sexual identity, I don't know. But it was probably both for me. At an athletic and strong girl to the family I grew up in, probably not a surprise that at some point in my life I was with a woman.

However, it was just one part of me and who I am. Totally identifying with that would have been no better than any of the other attempts to please and therefore be accepted.

What I discovered was that I had internalized a highly fearful and critical voice, that in my head sounded just like my mother. A "who-do-you-think-you-are?" kind of voice. My actual mom didn't and doesn't say that. But neither is she supportive, encouraging and warm.

So I heard her silence as criticism. I wanted to be other. Other than who I was.

I had three daughters within the first three years of being married. I was petrified that they would all grow up to hate me. THAT was when I realized how much I didn't "like" my mother. And I didn't know what to do with that information.

My journey has been profound and healing and wonderful. Painful too.

I've reconciled and healed a lot of the pain from having a mother who simply couldn't mother me as I needed.

And, I think I have been a good mother to my daughters (and my step daughter).

My grown girls are independent, curious, strong, autonomous. They are also as whole as any young person I've ever seen. They relish their feminine selves in good ways. They also see themselves as fully human and "as good as anyone." They're miraculous to me.

I think they have no idea what it is like to feel disconnected from your body. I also think they have no idea what it is like to feel unloved.

So they may not understand me in some ways, but I think that is a good thing.

Be well. Please let me know if I can offer any encouragement or anything.

My god, you've just described me. The internalized mother who has almost no resemblence to the real one, the joyful acceptance found in the arms of another woman, the struggles with feminimity.

Glad to know I'm not the only one who's felt this way.

ASlyJD - nope, not the only one by a long shot!!

I've really gotten a lot of inspiration from some Jungian writers - some women, some men - who get this internalized voice thing.

Marion Woodman, Thomas Moore, Patricia Berry, Linda Schierse Leonard, Clarissa Pinkola Estes.

There are some great books out there! When I'd discover one and read it I felt like this writer had been living under my bed or something!! :)

artandsoul:

You remind me of a friend who I once knew here. I helped her as much as I could by remaining what I am, a point of stability. Keep your guard up as you help others. There are those who will take advantage.

A good post

Thanks - I'll do my best to keep that in mind! If you see me making a fatal error, let me know! :)