Most cults will eventually collapse on their own. The important thing for state officials to remember is how cults thrive on persecution. The martyr thing makes them all pull together and defend the Grand Exhalted Prophet or whatever he calls himself.

Another important thing for government to remember is the First Amendment. One man's cult is another's constitutionally protected free exercise of religion. History shows that a whole lot of religious persecution has occurred under the guise of law enforcement.

After Waco, a bumper sticker circulated among the militia set which read "Is your church BATF approved?" I understand its genesis, if nothing else propagated by that ilk.

I agree with the author that the FLDS raid and subsequent remands to state custody occurred with good intent. I genuinely hope that such would always be the case in our country. I also hope that the judiciary will forever stand beside those whose faiths - and absence of faith - are outside the mainstream.

Savory Goodness, First, I agree that the Gov't overstepped its bounds, but remember a religion is not allowed to actually break the laws of the US, just because its in their religion, for example human sacrifice is not allowed, because it harms another individual, in this case they are harming the minors. That said, the Gov't needs to figure out what probable cause is, and how to follow basic due process laws. How are they going to feel when they have to let the Child molestation continue because they didn't do their jobs right?

"[In] this case they are harming the minors. That said, the Gov't needs to figure out what probable cause is, and how to follow basic due process laws. How are they going to feel when they have to let the Child molestation continue because they didn't do their jobs right?"

Pat -

Absolutely right on all points. It does seem to me that the blanket removal of all the young 'uns was an error, albeit seemingly justifiable in the face of the evidence at hand then. That evidence has since rapidly deteriorated, as it often does. I take from your post that you believe that the state did not meet its burden to demonstrate an immediate grave risk in every child's case, and I agree. If that means that molesters are freed to keep molesting, then our system will have yielded a very nasty outcome.

I give the FLDSers some credit for abiding by the rule of law (on this point only) and letting the system work for them. I am not sure I could be counted on for such restraint if the government came for my kids.

Arlington:

Most cults will eventually collapse on their own.

Do they? We see coverage when they do - but I don't think we should assume the dramatic flameouts of some to be indicitive of the norm.

A combine response to posts on this thread....

"Most cults will eventually collapse on their own."

Not that it matters one iota in this instance, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the LDS/FLDS to go away. They've been around almost a hundred years.

"The important thing for state officials to remember is how cults thrive on persecution. The martyr thing makes them all pull together and defend the Grand Exhalted Prophet or whatever he calls himself."

Apparently, the State of Texas didn't learn that showing up on the doorstep of a "non-traditional" religion with massed firepower can't presage a peaceful end. Instead, they played to the sect's rhetoric. In doing so, they endangered all of the children they claimed they wanted to help.

"I agree with the author that the FLDS raid and subsequent remands to state custody occurred with good intent. I genuinely hope that such would always be the case in our country."

When the cops show up on your front door with automatic weapons and a tank, it is hard to believe they had "good intent." When the state takes away your children without probable cause in an illegal manner, it is hard to believe they had "good intent." When the state persecutes, (yes, persecutes, there has been no allegation of any crime committed by the people in YFZ)

See this for what it is - The State of Texas exercising their political/martial muscle on people who don't live the way the "good ol'boys" in Texas like. In other words, *religious intolerance.*

"overstepped its bounds, but remember a religion is not allowed to actually break the laws of the US, just because its in their religion, for example human sacrifice is not allowed, because it harms another individual, in this case they are harming the minors."

There has been no charges filed against any of the people the State of Texas removed from the YFZ compound. So, that the people in YFZ were "break[ing] the laws," doesn't justify what the State of Texas did.

"That said, the Gov't needs to figure out what probable cause is, and how to follow basic due process laws. How are they going to feel when they have to let the Child molestation continue because they didn't do their jobs right?"

Cops never think what they do has negative results, they always think they are right - no matter how much they screw the pooch. The typical cop/DA feels that everything they do is correct. So, I wouldn't hold my breath until someone admits what they did may have/had negative consequences.

"It does seem to me that the blanket removal of all the young 'uns was an error, albeit seemingly justifiable in the face of the evidence at hand then."

The appellate court didn't agree with you. The only "evidence" they had was a hoax telephone call, (probably made by someone who had a grudge against the people at YFZ), that they didn't try to verify, (and which could have easily found to be a hoax), before they showed up with automatic weapons and a tank to "save the children." I do not understand why people seem to think that anything done in the name of the "children" justifies any action, no who's civil rights are violated. You have to wonder if these people believe in/understand the constitution.

Sorry, this paragraph should have read...

"When the cops show up on your front door with automatic weapons and a tank, it is hard to believe they had "good intent." When the state takes away your children without probable cause in an illegal manner, it is hard to believe they had "good intent." When the state persecutes, (yes, persecutes, there has been no allegation of any crime committed by the people in YFZ) , people solely because they are different and trumps up reasons to act in an illegal manner, it is hard to believe they had ""good intent."

"When the state persecutes, (yes, persecutes, there has been no allegation of any crime committed by the people in YFZ) , people solely because they are different and trumps up reasons to act in an illegal manner ... ."

Good Doctor -

Further to my prior posts, I hope like hell that ain't why the state acted as they did in rousting this community.