Couple of points

Christopher Hitchens' math is pre-holocaust. There were 18 million Jews. We are now down to perhaps 13 million. The simple, fundamental and widely ignored Jewish fear remains:that without a protector state in some form or other the gentiles will finish the job.

The option of a state for the jews fulfills this need. This is not what religious Jews long for but their longings are clearly as doomed to frustration as those of all the other religious purists Christopher Hitchens so often, rightly, rails against. In the end all the religious constructions that respond to persecution with fantasy are bound to fracture should they ever be fated to have part of their dreams fulfilled.

Care for some Scotch on the rocks?

Jews behavior through out milenia, is what has brought them problems

Or Christians, Muslims, or any religious people.

The end of all religions would be a blessing for man.

There is nothing worst than a religious state. Israel is a state that mankind would of created centuries ago but should NOT of in a modern time.

All states should be secular states.

While I have no respect for any religion the Jew did NOT cause the problem instead other religions (Christian and Muslims) caused problems for the Jews.

Christians and Muslims have caused mankind a lot more grief than the Jews, by a long shot!

I'm always amazed at how non-Christian people can blather on about something they know nothing about!!!

I take it that your flippant reply to my serious point constituted

a sort of toast to the gentiles I referred to.

If you are not of that party please disown it.

Flippancy equals guilt

That was, in part, my point - or implied by my point

You miss the point.

Religious Jews were not initially in favour of Zionism. Israel was

founded by people who had much the same sort of view as you.

It was intended to be an escape from the historic prison

created for Jews by christians (and muslims)

I suppose that means you would like ,or have liked, to join the party

of the gentiles I referred to.

If your intentions are not destructive - as your comment indicates

they must be - then withdraw your odious remarks and apologize

I understood your point and history clearly shows that the Jews need an 'escape'. But it is folly to believe one can create a secular state for Jews (or any religion) that will not be taken over by the religious.

I assume the typically Jew that moves from Europe or the USA to live in Israel is a religous Jew and not a secular Jew.

Note that there are no secular Arab states (i.e. nations with a majority of muslims are all muslims states). This fact when combined with the now Zionist state of Israel is the main reason for the current conflict.

i.e. if Israel was secular AND the surounding Arab states were also secular there wouldn't be a conflict. That was my main point. For the conflict to end states have to be secular OR one religious has to kill off the other.

Note that this same point is the reason the Iraq invasion was such a major mistake. Iraq under Saddam was more secular than Iraq today. All the invasion did was set back the progress of an Arab secular state.

Hey, even non Christians know how the Spainish missions were build or how the Catholics helped the Germans round up the Jews.

What Christians fail to understand is that they are living a lie by believing in voodoo and myths. Oh well, Christians are just another set of religious nut jobs, like their Muslims brothers.

You're right, the end of religion would be great. And when Jesus returns they'll all be gone except for the one true faith. You see, Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship. Of course, "secularists" can't understand this, but the day will come when if you don't get it here, you will there!!!

I am happy to correct you on one point and invite you to get to know more about Israel.

Most israeli Jews are secular - in the same sense that most people in europe and North america are secular - they live their lives largely without reference to the demands of religion.

More than that, a large percentage of israelis are actively secular

- in the sense that they are not religious believers and distance

themselves from religious practice or actively flout it .

Religions have a legal foothold in divorce law but other than the nuisance this creates they are influential only when their political partyies have votes a

governing party needs to form a coalition.

When large scale immigration took place to Israel the majority were secular.

in recent immigration some groups are more secular (eg Russians) and some more likely (but not overwhelmingly) religious (British, Americans)

Research this yourself. I hope you find it interesting

Have you ever taken a serious look at Christianity, and by that I mean Jesus Christ? I'm not talking "churchianity" but the real deal of a relationship with Jesus. Wait, that means you might have to drop you're preconceived notions at the door, or find out the meaning of "the preaching of the Cross to them that perish is foolishness."