Hitchens is confused and confusing. He does not seem to understand the meaning of 'Jewish state' as Israelis understand it.

The Jewish state is one in which the great majority of its citizens are Jewish. It is one in which the Hebrew calendar plays a central part in the life of the country. The High Holidays, Hanukah, Pesach are holidays for the country as a whole. The Jewish state is ideally one which lives in accordance with moral principles given in traditional religious sources. The Jewish state aims to be a 'light to the nations'.

The Jewish state is also the 'home' to which Jews from all over the world have come to live, and can come to live should they choose.

It is impossible to understand the meaning of this unless one understands Jewish history , a history of persecution and catastrophe in which the Jews could not defend themselves.

There is only one Jewish state in which Jewish religion and culture set the tone for the society as a whole. There are on the other hand dozens of 'Christian culture' and Islamic dominated states.

One more point. Israel was created to be a Jewish state. This was its purpose in coming into being. And the thousands who sacrificed their lives did so to help a Jewish state to live.

The imperative of survival for Israel then is as a Jewish state.

The Jewish state aims to be a 'light to the nations'.

Since it obviously failed at that, can we just call it quits before more damage is done? I don't doubt that there were thousands that sacrificed themselves for a greater purpose, but that doesn't mean they were right. They gave their lives for an ideal. Big whoop. They and millions of others. The point is, Israel does not work for the Jews, it does not work for the Arabs, it does not work for people who believe in democracy, civil rights, or even common decency.

Israel is paying Jews to immigrate to it nowadays (thousands of dollars, at least if you're a desired immigrant). And yet its population continues to become less and less Jewish. Its not possible for Israel to survive as a Jewish state. The earlier that Israelis start negotiating towards the successor state, the better the deal they will get. Hey, sounds like that could appeal, no? An early bird special on a one-state non-racist solution?

Endoril, you're a fool or a liar. Which one are you?

There is no state in the Middle East which allows anything near to the civil rights for its people, Jew and non-Jew alike, as is allowed by Israel.

Israel is among the very few Middle East economies which are not oil-based, and so must develop all of its people, skills and talents, rather than say, turning women into chattel and spending all day reading the religious texts, waiting for the check from the family oil well to come in, as does its neighbors.

It is modern and stable, not backwards and at war with itself.

It is one of the very few countries in the Middle East with anything resembling a popular vote and functioning, popular representation for its people.

Israel's media and newspapers are fully free to loudly condemn and criticize its government, rather than being mouthpieces for the state like its neighbors' are.

Israel's politics are vibrant and dynamic, not stultified and controlled by the government, like its' neighbors.

The reason is that Israel works so much better than its neighbors is basically built on the values of the Western Enlightenment, not barbaric Dark Ages values of its neighbors. And lets not forget that ethical monotheism, which Jews brought the world, underlies the Enlightenment values which we've based our modern societies upon.

You either don't know all of the above, and really believe that Israel "...does not work for people who believe in democracy, civil rights, or even common decency," and therefore are a fool, or; you know your post is false and you are a liar. Which are you?

No, let's not get rid of Israel or lie about it. Rather, let's demand that it do the right thing by Palestine without demanding it commit suicide in the process. The Middle East, and therefore the world, need more Israels, not fewer.

Endoril, you're a fool or a liar. Which one are you?

Oh, given the chose, I'll always be the Fool. Now, which one are you?

There is no state in the Middle East which allows anything near to the civil rights for its people, Jew and non-Jew alike, as is allowed by Israel.

Entirely besides the point. Apartheid South-Africa was as good as it got in its day too, but that did not make it a state worth supporting. Even so, one can argue that Turkey does a better job, even with its spotty history - at least it seems to be improving.

Israel is among the very few Middle East economies which are not oil-based, and so must develop all of its people, skills and talents, rather than say, turning women into chattel and spending all day reading the religious texts, waiting for the check from the family oil well to come in, as does its neighbors.

Sadly, you're again forgetting Turkey. And pre-1991 Iraq, and Lebanon (if it could get out of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which it is stuck into because of the large amount of refugees on its territory). And again, being the best among thugs is no reference, least of all if you're responsible for the other thugs not getting ahead....

It is modern and stable, not backwards and at war with itself.

Excuse me? Do you see two states there? Israel is at war with itself right now.

It is one of the very few countries in the Middle East with anything resembling a popular vote and functioning, popular representation for its people.

For those who can vote, and not counting the refugees. Yes. That is why Israel is such a problem for the West: it is pretty much a democracy, but it is religious, racist and militaristic. It is the worst possible example of a democracy.

Israel's media and newspapers are fully free to loudly condemn and criticize its government, rather than being mouthpieces for the state like its neighbors' are.

Indeed, yet they are not able to change its policies, pretty much like it's neighbour's papers are. It shows that a free press is not sufficient to create a humane government.

Israel's politics are vibrant and dynamic, not stultified and controlled by the government, like its' neighbors.

Right. And Genghis Khan had an active, outdoor lifestyle.

The reason is that Israel works so much better than its neighbors is basically built on the values of the Western Enlightenment, not barbaric Dark Ages values of its neighbors.

And let's not forget billions of government aid from western governments, previous immigration of wealthy, educated individuals and religious/ideologicially inspired investors worldwide.

And lets not forget that ethical monotheism, which Jews brought the world, underlies the Enlightenment values which we've based our modern societies upon.

Actually, Enlightenment came about through the discovery of ancient pagan knowledge (part of it transferred and improved by Islam) and the discovery of a humanist framework that transcended religion.

Ethical monotheism, by the way, is as much as description of Christianity and Islam. It probably accounts for most of the violent deaths before the twentieth century (when secularist ideologies started to give it a run for its money).

You either don't know all of the above, and really believe that Israel "...does not work for people who believe in democracy, civil rights, or even common decency," and therefore are a fool, or; you know your post is false and you are a liar. Which are you?

Ok, so I think we've established you're the ignoramus. I'll still be the fool for arguing my case in this kind of forum.

No, let's not get rid of Israel or lie about it. Rather, let's demand that it do the right thing by Palestine without demanding it commit suicide in the process. The Middle East, and therefore the world, need more Israels, not fewer.

Ah, MORE racist and ideological states that the West has to bankroll. No thanks, I think a single state in Palestine, with actual relgious freedom, the right to return, no racism and a real democracy will do just fine. If the US and Europe continue to poor money into this kind of state, it will work. If not, the Jews will just continue to move back to Europe and the US.

Turkey is not considered the Middle East. But if you can forgive Turkey's "spotty history" (gotta love that euphemism!) you can certainly forgive Israel's.

Israel is the best thing going in the Middle East, and you know it. Still, you're not merely demanding it fix its problems, but for it to stop existing. You talk about it like it's the Soviet Union.

You admit that it's the best among regional thugs (your words). So, why not aim your moral outrage at the other, worse thugs in the region?

Because you weren't instructed in college to be angry at brown, pitiful Arabs, but rather to see them as utterly helpless victims, leaves in the wind, with no ability to do anything but react to insults against them. Their entire plight, their entire history, culture, politics - everything - was made out of whole cloth first by the Crusaders, then by the British and French colonists, then by the Americans. They just wait for input to which to respond. They are just things which react to circumstances. They have no responsibility for anything.

I don't, by the way, really believe you're nearly as angry about Israel as you pretend. You've just been trained, like Pavlov's dog, to get really really angry at Israel the powerful, on behalf of the powerless Palestinians, further victims of the West. This is your requirement to maintain your credential as an Angry Progressive Concerned with Injustice!

Good for you!

Interesting debate.

Teh regional thugs do deserve and are targetted for their moral outrage, but none have of them rationalise their behavior to the argument that if they the alternative threatens their existence. In other words, none have made the case that they have a moral right to represss another ethnicity.

And yes Earlybird, people do get pissed off when they are driven out of their homes and made to live in open air prisons for half a century. It's interesting to hear the argument put forward that the victims fo the Nakba should just get over it and move on. Then again, there is no other 60 year occupation to compare this situation to, is there?

Did I suggest anywhere that the Palestinians should just get over it and move on? No. Although, frankly, that is ultimately what they are going to have to do. Either that or cling to their on-going fantasies of wiping Israel off the map.

We do the Palestinians no favor here in the West, attempting to show our progressive humanitarian bona fides by foaming at the mouth over the plight of the Palestinian. We should acknowledge the injustice and rather than be paralyzed by it, help them create at least a functioning, producted de facto state. It seems if we and they put some energy into that project rather than screaming "1947/1967!" we'd help them get some where.

Let's put an ounce of the public outrage hurled at Israel today towards say, Darfur, Russians' policy against Chechnya, etc., etc., etc. Or, while we're in the same neighborhood, at Iran's repression of nearly every one of its citizens not signed onto the Ahmadinejad regime. (Oh, but to criticize Iran's government would somehow lend support to Bush and neocons, so we give Ah'jad a pass and a very polite reception at Columbia.)

There become these cause celeb' which are so very fashionable and which actually get in the way often of the actual peace these poseurs pretend to be fighting for.

To EarlyBird's intention!

Why strive to make us accept the unacceptable? Your one-way-stand betrayed you because reality is really ugly and can't be hidden by a sifter. Abraham Lincoln once said that you can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

You can attentively have a look at...

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BTW, are you a fervent Zio? If so don't reply! If not change your glasses!

Amen