Bush's speech to the Knesset got me thinking about what the US has gotten for its money (and, my friends, as John would say, it's a shitload of money) since dramatically ramping up aid to Isrrael and Egypt in 1973.

I want to start with this question: Based on our collective experience with giveaway programs in general (think Great Society, eg), would you expect the ROI to be net positive or negative?

I say negative.

not that you can eat it or spend it though.

The Jacksonian belief system holds forth thusly:

That such expenditure is in behalf of what is right and good...( said elements to be determined at a later date by those who cannot be debated ) That the return is not always in monetary gain but is often in the visible prosperity of our allies.

You are also missing the very powerful Isreali Lobby here in our legislature....when are you guys gonna get it? The United states law making body is one giant " For Profit " bonanza....

" Build me a swimming pool and I will earmark your bill "

nuff said.

jo

of "returns" in ROI.

Another way of asking the question is, "Has the investment proven to be in the interests of the US, Israel, or Egypt?"

I would say US and Israel, no, and Egypt, not sure, probably yes.

Given that Israel is like a sand castle on the sea shore and our involvement with them is a mysterious mix of fundamentalism and political greed...

Not helping Israel is not good for Israel..but may be good for us politically and financially.

Not helping israel is not good for israel but may be bad for us ideologically and perhaps reputationally.

I must admit to being very ignorant about out relationship with Isreal trade wise and just about any other wise. I don't know what we get out of the relationship. What is the exchange rate on the currencies?

I can demonstrate that our current form of helping Israel, ie, giving them tons of money, is bad for Israel and bad for us. That part's easy.

Then we have to look at the question of, is the alternative even worse?

Exchange rates? I don't know, I'll have to leave that to someone else.

this will be a learning experience for me.

I am interested in the economic facts for starters.

back in a couple hours

Using any specific regimen??

One push, one pull, one tricep, one bicep, then either squats or deadlifts

5 or 6 sets, including a couple singles if I feel strong and have a spotter.

For me it's all about testosterone production stimulated by heavy lifting. Grumpy old men are grumpy because of low testosterone.

Downside is you can get hurt.

You can't get careless about stretching, warmup, technique (eg, you have to bench like a power lifter, not a bodybuilder)

US military and economic aid to Israel started in earnest after the Yom Kippur War. Nixon's intention, according to Kissinger, was to

"to reduce Soviet influence, weaken Arab radicals, encourage Arab moderates and assure Israel’s security"

I would say Nixon's idea was that a strong Israel would be strategically good for the US.

How much aid? Economic or military? Grants or loans? Offsets?

I use the figure $3 billion per year since 1972, plus periodic big grants ("special aid") for a specific purpose, eg., $3B loan and grant package in '79 to withdraw from the Sinai, $1.8B after the Wye River Accords in 98. Any time any hint of progress is made in Israeli-Arab relations, Israel expects and gets "Special Aid".

Usually when I get in this discussion, pro-Israel people who think that even discussing this stuff is prima facie anti-Semitic, like to challenge this or that number.

I can't be bothered. This my source on Aid to Israel

gotta take a break. I've got wicked bad ADD.

The aid makes Israel stronger
A stronger Israel is in America's strategic interest

Does the aid make Israel stronger? Either economically, or strategically, or both?

No, of course not. When did a handout ever make anybody stronger? US aid has made a charity case out of Israel.

Before the Age of American Aid, ie, from 1950 to 1973, Israel's per capita GDP grew at 5.59% a year. From 1974 to 2003 it averaged 1.51% a year.

Israel's a socialist state. What happens when you give direct aid to a socialist state? It further empowers the socialist elites and institutions. Very goddamn simple, private, as my old DI used to say.

The quick and easy fix of aid has become a sort of narcotic
for the Israeli political system, and Israel’s elites have convinced themselves that the nation cannot live without it. Under this mindset, aid becomes the overarching goal of policymakers. The purpose of the nation’s economic policies is no longer growth but
rather aid; the purpose of its foreign policy is no longer strength but rather aid; the purpose of its defense policy is no longer security but rather aid; and in the end the motivations driving policymakers are not calculations of national interest but the desire
for continued and expanded aid. Levin

So US aid makes Israel weaker, not stronger. Hence, it cannot be in US interests to give aid to Israel

You know, it's not even a huge amount of money for the US, but why piss it away perpetuating socialism in Israel. I thought we were big-time capitalists.

(it doesn't work either)