.... that I have enjoyed the Hillary-Obama bloodbath.

(Although I am sure that these mortal enemies, were they to pause for a moment and reflect, would agree that they are united in their hatred of Nader.)

The reason I find it pleasurable to watch the Dems self destruct is mainy because I think it is necessary for the long run. But what makes this event notable is that it goes a long way to show that the truly nasty and hysterical DLC treatment of Nader was not unique to the issues and circumstances of the Nader candidacy. It is an equal opportunity dysfunctional nastiness, perfectly happy to aim its bile at anyone. No matter who's watching.

Besides, it has beeen refreshing to actually watch a Fray political slimeathon progress solely from the sidelines a a more or less uninterested observer. I join that wingnuts on the sidelines, beer in hand, and watch the cars zoom round and round, waiting for a wreck.

Folks. The Democratic party is useless and broken. Perhaps a loss to grandpa McCain is what it will take to make that point sink in.

But I am not holding my breath.

It's not going to happen, they will not fix the problem. Here's why:

McCain will pick a very strong VP and win in November. He will serve one term and then his VP will be elected over another Leftist Democrat candidate in 2012. By 2016 the Democrats will be too rabid and desperate, over not being able to regain power, to use good judgement in selecting a reasonable candidate to represent them.

This bloodbath between Hillary and Obie may have served a very good purpose. It could keep the Democrats out of the White House for the next generation.

Jack

Grandpa McCain is perceived by the voters as old, tired, confused, and more of the same. He's easily beaten by a young and confident Obama in November, and Dems get full control of both houses of Congress as well. The war in Iraq is wound down and ended and Armageddon does not occur; some liberal judges are appointed and the Republic does not come to an end; and we move back in the right direction on the economy, taxation, the deficit, the environment, and a number of other concerns, resulting in Obama's reelection in 2012, with Hillary sitting out the primary. With the by-now desperate GOP collapsing from infighting between the religious right, trad Cons, and Neocons, Hillary then runs in '16 and edges out the Republican.

Who knows. My scenario's at least as likely as yours, though...:)

what state you live in?

I can't help but agree with you on some of your criticisms of the situation in the Democratic party

As a progressive you couldn't possibly enjoy the thought of 4 more years of Bush's policies.

We would have no country left.

The people in power in the Dem party were there when Gingrich, then Bush took over. There were there while Gingrich & Bush wreaked their havoc, there were there when the Dems took back Congress and changed nothing. And they are still there now. They also still all get their money fom the same corporate interests as well.

So, what evidence, EVIDENCE (as opposed to audacious hope), do you have that a Dem victory will result in an appreciable change in any of this?

What evidence do you have that merely being "better than Bush" is good enough, and is not still a disaster for this country?

As a progressive, what I want to see is the removal of corrupt corporatists from BOTH parties. Until then, we are just debating rate of decay, not reversal of trend.

What evidence do you have that merely being "better than Bush" is good enough, and is not still a disaster for this country?

It depends on your time horizon. It you're concerned about the next 5-10 years, it could make a difference. Bill Clinton was arguably better than George Herbert Walker. The economy prospered and the deficits were finally eliminated. George Walker Bush has inarguably been worse than Al Gore would have been. Obama at least would have a shot at being better for the country than McSame.

As a progressive, what I want to see is the removal of corrupt corporatists from BOTH parties. Until then, we are just debating rate of decay, not reversal of trend.

Aint gonna happen, Sarvis, and you know it. The best we can do is put the corporatists over in one small corner.

the point is: they are all in on it.

It takes two to tango and the Dems have been playing ginger rogers to the GOP fred estaire too well for my liking.

Clinton did some really awful things for a supposed liberal.

The DLC has presided over this catastrophe so perfectly, it is almost... as if... it's on purpose....

The Dems are like the team that used to play against the Harlem Globetrotters: your job is to lose every single night, youre the straight man, get it?

In the real world, when a time fails over and over and over, we fire the coach.

I would settle for kicking them out of one party.

And what guarantee would you have that the party which was corporate free would be the dominant party?

The Democrats' line has been that the corporations could benefit everyone including themselves by becoming more responsible, and the Republicans' line was that the corporations ARE America and can do whatever the hell they want.

I admit the Democratic line has been getting more than a little frayed as of late.