I suspect the reason so many find it so disturbing is just how sad the whole thing is. We go from our loving forgiving savoir to "our god is an AWESOME God" who "reigns" and the OT God of fire, brimstone, and Smiting returns. The Christians of this culture think it is some kind of a cool club. They seek material wealth from a relationship with God and what is worst is that ministers like Hagee and Olsteen do nothing to discourage it. No more is the Christian looking to live by the golden rule or as Jesus suggested. Now is pray for pay. And the church experience is more like a rave with people closing their eyes and holding up their hands hoping to be sucked into some kind of drug trip from Heaven. The only good thing to come out of all this is a greater appreciation for the difference between real Christians and posers who dont walk the walk.

And the church experience is more like a rave with people closing their eyes and holding up their hands hoping to be sucked into some kind of drug trip from Heaven.

... i really hope you don't honestly think that about the "church experience" because that is just plain ignorant.

Ignorant is claiming to be a follower of Jesus and supporting hate mongers like John Hagee or greed-based con men like Joel Olsteen. Jesus wasnt selling a lottery ticket and he certainly wouldnt be approving the revenge and bitter hatred of non-Christians shown by Hagee.

And the nutjobs who close eyes and stare into the ceiling while proclaiming their christian superiority to others and "awesome God" theology are even more ignorant since they seek what in this bizzarre head trip? Did Jesus ask you to float away on a cloud of prayer? No, he talked of genuine prayer-not some Christian drug dream.

The modern Christian is nothing like Jesus described-many are spiteful and vengeful, even hateful of non-church members. Many are driven by greed-sometimes even their curch philosophy is made around a concept of tithe to get back more (like an investment!). It is a sick reality.

God didnt send his only son so you can make a buck. And every time an innocent dies for our lies and our sins, the process repeats-from a dead child in Iraq following "shock and awe" to a young man shot 41 times by police when he reached for his wallett. Senseless death reminds us of our humanity. God knew that-so he sent his son to die needlessly so we would be forever reminded of sacrifice and of our own mortality-NOT so you can be on the winning "team" in some imagined battle against non Christians, and certainly not so you could drive a nicer car or live in a bigger home.

RML, well-said.

I've been to one of those megachurches and I couldn't shake the feeling that is was all about trying to impress everyone else; it was like a contest of how many times you can mention the name of Jesus. There is no question that much of religion is basically a country club. But 'twas ever thus.

I have to at least sympathize with people who reach for this sort of thing, particularly kids.And I can't know for sure what their real motivations are. People take to religion for all sorts of reasons. These pop culture/religion hybrids give off the whiff of baseness with their bizarre mixture of faith and tackiness, but maybe it is just this: a lack of taste.

that is an unfair generalization that you are making about christians. Not all christians are the way you describe us all to be and the ones who are that way aren't even true christians in the first place.

And the nutjobs who close eyes and stare into the ceiling while proclaiming their christian superiority to others and "awesome God" theology are even more ignorant since they seek what in this bizzarre head trip? Did Jesus ask you to float away on a cloud of prayer? No, he talked of genuine prayer-not some Christian drug dream.

1) we don't proclaim our christian superiority. I don't know where you got that from but that just is not true.

2) You are making the tradition of praise and worship into something that it isn't by saying that its a head trip. Proclaiming that our god is awesome isn't ignorant. We're acknowledging the fact that he has done many wondrous things and are humbling ourselves in his presence.

3) the so-called "head trip" we are seeking is getting closer to god. The entire purpose of being a christian is having a close relationship with god.

4) And the whole floating on a cloud of prayer thing is just a retarded thing to say, and to call it a christian drug dream?? i dont even know what to say to that. whatever church you supposedly "experienced" this in obviously wasn't a good place, but it is downright rude to trash christianity by saying things like that. My prayers are flippin genuine. No clouds here.

chelseag:

1) we don't proclaim our christian superiority. I don't know where you got that from but that just is not true.

Sure you do. What about those insufferable "Christians aren't perfect -- just forgiven" bumper stickers? If that isn't advertising your smug arrogance and perceived superiority, I don't know what is.

chelseag:

2) You are making the tradition of praise and worship into something that it isn't by saying that its a head trip. Proclaiming that our god is awesome isn't ignorant. We're acknowledging the fact that he has done many wondrous things and are humbling ourselves in his presence.

When I see a teenager (always a teenager) wearing a T-shirt that says "My God is an awesome God", it occurs to me that such a person is no different from another teenager wearing a shirt proclaiming their love of a particular band. In both cases, the person probably couldn't recite the lyrics because they only operate on the surface (listening to the music and not the lyrics, or going to church but not really comprehending it).

chelseag:

3) the so-called "head trip" we are seeking is getting closer to god. The entire purpose of being a christian is having a close relationship with god.

If pretending to talk to a fictional character isn't a head trip, then what is?

>>>

The Real RML:

God didnt send his only son so you can make a buck. And every time an innocent dies for our lies and our sins, the process repeats-from a dead child in Iraq following "shock and awe" to a young man shot 41 times by police when he reached for his wallett. Senseless death reminds us of our humanity.

If that is true, and being reminded of our humanity is a good thing, then logically it follows that we should have more senseless death. Does that make sense?

>>>

The Real RML:

God knew that-so he sent his son to die needlessly so we would be forever reminded of sacrifice and of our own mortality

That's not why Christ died. In order to fully understand the point of the crucifixion, you have to look at it within the context of burnt offerings in the Old Testament. Jews were obligated to sacrifice their best lamb in order to repent for their sins; Christ was the ultimate burnt offering. The crucifixion is specifically connected to forgiveness of sins; it is not meant as a wishy-washy reminder of mortality.

>>>

The Real RML:

-NOT so you can be on the winning "team" in some imagined battle against non Christians, and certainly not so you could drive a nicer car or live in a bigger home.

Jesus specifically stated that there was a battle to be fought. He stated ""He who is not with Me is against Me," and "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

It's fair to criticize modern Christians for materialism, but the battle against false teachings is not imaginary.

chelseag:

1) we don't proclaim our christian superiority. I don't know where you got that from but that just is not true.

Sure you do. What about those insufferable "Christians aren't perfect -- just forgiven" bumper stickers? If that isn't advertising your smug arrogance and perceived superiority, I don't know what is.

==== Point made well there. Christianity has joined politics and now there is a full "us and them" mentality. It is not enough now that we let them live by their beliefs of their own free will-now they seek to legislate their lifestyle into law and make non-christians into criminals-to force women into motherhood before their time, and to give up the right of free speech. From Bill O'Reilleys God warriors to Pastor John Hagee insisting the USA invade the middle east to expedite armageddon, the church has been getting itself more and more into the lives of others against their will via undue influence over culture and politics.

chelseag:

2) You are making the tradition of praise and worship into something that it isn't by saying that its a head trip. Proclaiming that our god is awesome isn't ignorant. We're acknowledging the fact that he has done many wondrous things and are humbling ourselves in his presence.

When I see a teenager (always a teenager) wearing a T-shirt that says "My God is an awesome God", it occurs to me that such a person is no different from another teenager wearing a shirt proclaiming their love of a particular band. In both cases, the person probably couldn't recite the lyrics because they only operate on the surface (listening to the music and not the lyrics, or going to church but not really comprehending it).

==== Exactly. Most kids go to church because mom and dad make them. Who knows how many are being restricted to listen only to this propaganda-brought up on nothing else and programmed in ignorance. And yes, the "our team vs your team" idea as opposed to love and harmony comes out loud and clear too in "OUR God is an AWESOME GOD" and the unspoken "and yours sucks" is always there. It is indeed an attempt to put Christians in a position above non Christians and to give it a holy justification-the very same thinking which led islamists to do what they do in the name of their religion.

chelseag:

3) the so-called "head trip" we are seeking is getting closer to god. The entire purpose of being a christian is having a close relationship with god.

If pretending to talk to a fictional character isn't a head trip, then what is?

=== The theatrical prayer-staged for the camera and fellow Christian club members is what then? You congregate to pat yourselves on the back for being better than others and you profess some connection to a higher being that others lack-but you arent acting superior? And then we have pedaphile priests and the BTK killer who all used the church as a way to avoid the law and to avoid suspician....cant be a deacon...must be some homeless guy....Clearly it is not of a clear mind but one clouded by what amounts to group hypnosis.

Report abuseQuick Reply Re: Beginning of the End-Xian Pop
by pthalomarie
05/07/2008, 12:09 PM # Favorites Reply >>>

The Real RML:

God didnt send his only son so you can make a buck. And every time an innocent dies for our lies and our sins, the process repeats-from a dead child in Iraq following "shock and awe" to a young man shot 41 times by police when he reached for his wallett. Senseless death reminds us of our humanity.

If that is true, and being reminded of our humanity is a good thing, then logically it follows that we should have more senseless death. Does that make sense?

===== Actually it makes more sense than telling me I have to wait until death to understand and know whats going on, but trust me and put a dollar in the plate. Did we learn from Vietnam? No-we're in Iraq now. Did we learn from Christs death? Nope. Ghandi and John Lennon are assassinated. To say that only one character in one religion is right and all others are wrong? And to ignore what Christs death meant to us in our life vs after death? Of course there is more senseless death every year it seems (not that God does anything about it) and of course we get outraged. Eventually we get mad enough and we do something about it. But to your point-we DO have more senseless deaths, so while we both agree it sucks, it seems that Christs death meant nothing in the grand scheme of things but did provide the best known reference to martyrdom we have today.

>>>

The Real RML: God knew that-so he sent his son to die needlessly so we would be forever reminded of sacrifice and of our own mortality

That's not why Christ died. In order to fully understand the point of the crucifixion, you have to look at it within the context of burnt offerings in the Old Testament. Jews were obligated to sacrifice their best lamb in order to repent for their sins; Christ was the ultimate burnt offering. The crucifixion is specifically connected to forgiveness of sins; it is not meant as a wishy-washy reminder of mortality.

#### Well you are entitled to YOUR ideas, but what makes you think you have it right and I have it wrong? Christ didnt accummulate people with money and theatrics, he let them know their sins were forgiven, he let them know they could try to overcome their baser natures-he gave them hope.

>>>

The Real RML: -NOT so you can be on the winning "team" in some imagined battle against non Christians, and certainly not so you could drive a nicer car or live in a bigger home.

Jesus specifically stated that there was a battle to be fought. He stated ""He who is not with Me is against Me," and "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

### Right. Why would anyone sign on with Christianity if that is what Jesus was all about. I hear people justify wars with "I come with a sword" too. Christ spoke of turning the other cheek and he spoke of loving thy neighbor as thyself-he didnt say I will make you all into senseless murderers and spread hate-thats the other guy dude.

It's fair to criticize modern Christians for materialism, but the battle against false teachings is not imaginary.

### "Fair"? These people donate millions to televangelists and con men with a steeple and no taxes are paid. These churches get involved with politics and sell their members votes like a union. They seek to influence our laws to make them criminalize non-christian customs and lifestyles. When the most judgemental and violent religion may be supplying car bombers, the second most judgemental and violent is working from within the political system.

"that is an unfair generalization that you are making about christians. Not all christians are the way you describe us all to be and the ones who are that way aren't even true christians in the first place."

Muslims also feel they are all judged by the actions of some, but then it doesnt change their lack of support.

How many Christian groups came out against the war for revnge in Iraq (not even the country who attacked us)? How many Christian groups stood up when abortion giving doctors were being killed? How many stand against guns? Very very few.

But the key thing in your words is-it isnt MY Christianity doing that, its someone elses.

In other words, you dont speak for all-so no I cannot trust a Christian anymore than I can trust a Muslim. Religion ruling a mind is all absolute.

Okay, so in the interest of full disclosure and knowing where you are coming from:

Are you a Wiccan or do you just use their terminology, ("Xian")?????

The Real RML:

In other words, you dont speak for all-so no I cannot trust a Christian anymore than I can trust a Muslim. Religion ruling a mind is all absolute.

If it indeed "rules" "absolutely," maybe. Now you're just being a jerk. Lord knows they couldn't just be thoughtful people trying to live up to their values. Are you just miffed they don't agree with your politics 100%?

OK-full disclosure--I am NOT a Wiccan. I used Xian because it is a common shorthand for Christ (Xmas) but I do have a personal issue with the bigotry of the Christian church and with extreme right wing church groups who enjoy tax free status of being religious institutions while actively participating in campaigns.

Hellz-- Christians who take to themselves never had to fear anything. But when they begin to demonize all that is liberal as being "in league with Satan" per Pastor John Hagee and others like him, I have serious concerns. The nutjob church of Hagee has over 5 million members, a lot of money, and a personal alliance with John McCain-a candidate who once called Hagee an "agent of intolerance". If democrats and liberals are in league with Satan according to an influential person in the white house, how soon can it be before the ovens get fired up and the concentration camps appear? Yes, I believe we SHOULD remember the Witch hunts in Europe and in Salem MA were led by Christians, the torture was done by Christians, and the executions were done by Christians. For Christians to call Muslims animals and extremists is quite funny-less than 300 years ago the majority of the terrorism was being done by Christians.

That said, I hope you can tell by my writing that I believe followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ are good people. But when you claim to follow his beliefs and then run around with revenge and aggression in your heart, I hardly consider you to be a true follower of Christ. I read much from many religions and movements, so to me Christ is one of many great people who have taught great concepts of civilization, but the sins done in his name for the benefit of governments and individuals are sick and twisted.

As I once explained to a hateful Christian who told me all liberals were evil because we supported choice, many many liberals would not personally get one but they wouldnt deny someone else the right to make that choice. In addition, many a liberal is best described as a good samaritan, volunteering to help others, donating to charity, etc. Just because your politics or your religion are not in line with a church you should not be an easy target for hate just because it bears a cross.

Fair enough, but in the future could you refer to such people as "Godbags" or something, as opposed to just "Christians?"

Hellz I will be happy to stop generalizing "Christians" when THEY stop generalizing "liberals". Until then, I run the risk of being burned at the stake or otherwise treated when the uberChristians take the government-and they are well on their way with Hagee becoming one of McCains main backers.