I'm Christian, I'm white, and I'm even from the suburbs (I know, 3 mortal sins...I get it). Now that that's out of the way, I hate most of the "Christian" rock I've heard, and "Christian" comedians bore me. So, no, I don't buy into the stuff that this article, and presumably this book, rails against.

Now that I've given you some background, I'd like to respectfully ask these useless critics to shut up. Imagine, for a moment, that a guy with my background publicly denounces "rap" culture, criticizing it for being a forced culture of violence in the name of being "cool." Let's just say that a suburban white guy picks apart the "rap" culture for the fights between various rappers that are obviously contrived as publicity stunts. I can only imagine the fallout from that. One might fire back that Capt. Suburbia doesn't have the right to criticize because he hasn't "lived the life." These guys know the streets so they're just "keeping it real." Of course, that particular subculture has been accepted.

Not so for those disgusting Christians, though. I mean, look at them. Praying to...ugh...God, trying to find music and entertainment that doesn't use every cuss word known to man. Worse yet, when they don't find it in the culture, they go out and make some on their own. That really fries my ass. But seriously, is this country capable of tolerance? I hate rap music, so I don't buy it. I'm not going to sit around griping about it. Granted, I find it a little wierd that a rich kid from Rhode Island can say he "relates" to it, but to each, his own, I guess.

Look, if the Christian pop culture disgusts you, look the other way. It drives me nuts too sometimes, but I at least understand the mentality. I'm just getting a bit sick and tired of these headlines that are designed to make Christians out to be a bunch of head-in-the-clouds morons. What I find interesting about articles (and presumably books) like this is that on one hand, the same people that criticize Christians for "separating" themselves from offensive cultural norms are the ones that are making fun of them for trying to create their own outlets. Better yet, in the same breath, we'll pick on some Christian kids that watch the Daily Show. OK, let me get this straight. As a Christian, I'm supposed to fit into the culture, but not blend into it, worship God, but not avoid things that could be deemed offensive to Him. Oh, and I'm not supposed to ever mention that J-C guy, or make music or art that might be entertaining yet conforming to Christian beliefs. Did I miss anything?

You want the "useless critics" to shut up. Why not heed your own advice and simply ignore commentary that you don't find useful. I found it enormously informative. I am a believer, but self apply the term christian, for obvious reasons. You clearly missed the focus of the article.

Much of christian music, merchandising, ect is like commisioning an artist to write a song for a product; think ad agency. Some gems get through the purpose of the endeavor, which is to manipulate a brand loyalty, but not many. However, the commercialization of faith holds an inherent contradiction - though that has never stopped most "ministries" from being vast idolatrous cash cows.

The big problem is the self imposed colonization of those attempting to sanitize reality into a G rating. The result is an US/them polarization that in the less restrained becomes cult like, conformist and hateful of the "other." These types, i.e. the evangelical Bushies, are not persecuted because they are christian, but dismissed because they are often self righteous jerks who at the same time they slam pop culture promote a big brother athouritarian mind slavery to their own leaders and dogma. I grew up with this; I know. Lashing out in hatred of the "other" is often the only form of reassuring yourself and banning the nagging insecurity that accompanies any sentience and critical thinking skills.

If you've seen "The Neverending Story," you will remember something called "the nothing." That is what christian subculture amounts to; a desperate attempt to seperate oneself from the "world," and in doing so, becomes a blank white box of empty. I finally found the color outside the box.

lovethebomb, cite your source. Certainly as a critical thinker you have some evidence to back up the statment that "Much of christian music, merchandising, ect is like commissioning an artist to write a song for a product." or that "most ministries [are] vast idolatrous cash cows." And also as a critical thinker, you would know, of course, that the anecdotal evidence of your life experience does not represent credible information for an argument.

The real point is that the scriptural texts of Christianity call its followers to be held to a higher moral standard than what the non-Christian world typically allows. Things such as sexual promiscuity, excessive violence, and even profane language are specifically condemned in Biblical passages. So where does the Christian who would like to enjoy art and literature and entertainment go when all of those things are found in many places in secular culture? Listen to pop music, take a look at some of the most popular movies and especially television over the last five to ten years and you can see how it may feel to Christians like they are surrounded by a culture they are instructed by scripture to avoid. Granted, Christianity's case is not bolstered and has definitely been hampered by the hypocrisy found in many churches and in the lives of many believers, but to say that all of Christianity is hypocritical and self-righteous is like saying all Muslims are terrorists or all Mormons are polygamists. It is an ignorant statement to make based on a very narrow perspective - the perspective of self-experience.

I don't like most popular Christian bands or comedians either although I've been a believer most of my life. In our present society it is forbidden to criticize any group of people, except Christians. We are fair game. Of course, everything we see happening is predicted. You gave a good response.

It's the hoakum factor that comes from imitating the more vapid parts of pop culture instead of charting its own course, if you will.

But the fact is if you're predisposed to Christian entertainment, no harm no foul. I've railed against that reactionary, veiled condescension to Christianity prevalent in the media. And, uh, a lot of my friends.

I applaud those who can make something aesthetically pleasing in and of itself (good art) that also contains an element of faith. It's extremely hard to do well--at least in music. I think it's easier, for example, to write a good TV show with a Christian worldview, than it is to write a good song with the same. The pitfalls of cliche are too great.

Sinead O'Connor of all people mentioned this talking about her latest record, Theology. She was more comfortable writing in an Old Testament idiom than a New Testament idiom, because of the pitfalls of Jesus-loving cliches. There's something about Jesus that works great in more traditional Gospel/praise music that doesn't quite gel in contemporary stuff. Just my opinion.

This is no critique of your post Ford. I do agree with you on most of what you said.

One artists work I happen to find exhilarating, however, was Jacqui Valezquez [spelling could be off] and her CD "Llegar a Ti". The arrangement, the lyrics of the feature song of the same name, and the language [spanish] meld into a truly beautiful work of art in her voice. You will swear that in the final verses of the song that god does indeed hear her announce her coming, her voice and range is that powerful. I can't imagine the same song in english though. I believe you could find it in You Tube or one of those.

And I am an atheist.

CWill : are you serious? I need to cite "sources" to make the metaphor that message music is akin to ad jingles? It is self evident fact. That many "ministries" are idolatrous cash cows? Extortionist con men at best, more accurately vipers whose father is the devil, and white washed sepulchres of bleached bones. Hypocrites, pharisees, liars, and theives who glory in themselves, ect. Robertson, Hagee, Falwell, Bauer, ect. If I weren't convinced they were wolves in sheep's clothing who serve the opposite number, I would despair of faith altogether. Thankfully, they aren't even close to being christian at all.

What higher moral standard are you talking about? Like the mass murder Bush committed in the middle east, orderd by his "god?" I do not lump all believers together, only the dominant evangelical Bushies who are in power and own the airwaves and make big ridiculous stinks about "the war on christmas" and other nonesense. Oh and violence? Are you kidding me? Ever read the Old Testament? The polite term is ethnic cleansing or genocide. And the religious right are always eager to kill a lot of brown people if given the chance, and boy did they get their chance with Bush.

That is more profane that Grand Theft Auto IV.

Jesus spoke of love, compassion and forgiveness. Try it.

Many christians when they get into a position of power become "dominianists," i.e. facists.

L-P, I didn't mention this, but music is kind of my specialty. In rereading my post, I didn't make it very clear, but I will say that I listen to music with a critical ear, and I'm open to any quality piece, regardless of its style. In fact, later on I'll probably take you up on your suggestion. While we are exchaning artistic suggestions, I'd recommend the folk/bluegrass group the Avett Brothers. Not Christian, just really cool.

Onto Bomb-boy's post. I caught the focus of the article. I'm trying to look at it from a rational point of view. I recognize that the "salesman" side of Christian pop culture doesn't look much different than that of any other faction of pop culture. You help make my point with this:

"The big problem is the self imposed colonization of those attempting to sanitize reality into a G rating. The result is an US/them polarization that in the less restrained becomes cult like, conformist and hateful of the "other." These types, i.e. the evangelical Bushies,...etc."

What's wrong with sanitizing reality into a G rating? I think it's pretty creative to be expressive and even edgy without cussing, using blatant sex references or overt violence. The "us vs. them" mentality has nothing to do with some Christians trying to make some clean entertainment. Much of that has to do with the other side trying to force Christian beliefs behind the closed doors of a church. There are two sides to every conflict, friend.

Finally, I commend any Christian that can separate himself from the world when necessary. I'm not that good, unfortunately. As a Christian, I'll certainly admit that I'm a sinner. I'm not perfect and I don't claim to be. Yet, I know a few people that have managed to keep away from the filth that permeates the culture, and for that, I applaud them. Sometimes I wish I had their conviction. In the mean time, I'll do my best to keep plugging and try to figure things out. Call it a "desperate attempt."

"Things such as sexual promiscuity, excessive violence, and even profane language are specifically condemned in Biblical passages. . .Listen to pop music, take a look at some of the most popular movies and especially television over the last five to ten years and you can see how it may feel to Christians like they are surrounded by a culture they are instructed by scripture to avoid."

1) You're making the mistake of equating popular media with culture, as if all we do is watch TV and listen to pop music. What about attending gatherings, working in the garden, watching our kids play in the park, going to our jobs or schools, engaging in activism, going to a place of worship, posting in a forum thread online? All these things (and many more) are part of our culture. Many (if not most) of the activities we engage in in this country occur against a backdrop (realized or not) of Judeo-Christian values.

2) You're not being instructed by scripture to avoid "sexual promiscuity, excessive violence, and even profane language." You're being instructed by demagogues, who are proof-texting scripture to transmit not just values, but how to interpret them. (Hence you can rail against the virtual violence in GTA4, but be in full support of the very real deaths caused by the invasion of Iraq. You can wring your hands at Sex in the City without realizing that your sexual ethics are built on a foundation of sexism.)

3) Do you really think that this phenomenon is an artifact of the last decade? Christian ascetics have been urging a physical separation from "the world" for a couple thousand years; you can read about bricked-in anchorites in the middle ages and monks living on top of poles in the first couple centuries of the Common Era. Asceticism is not novel or unique, nor is it the only viewpoint in Christianity.

The Avett Brothers. I'll look them up. I enjoy quality bluegrass and its a blast to play. I have a few Martin guitars that are up to any new task in music that I've ventured. The challenge is really on me to make them sing, actually.

Bought the Crossroads 2007 DVD. Highly recommend it if you enjoy Blues, Honky tonk blues. There's a bonus section on it with a delightful surprise being a young Aussie girl by the name of Orianthi another great YouTube look up. She has a beautiful PRS guitar that she just rips to shreds. And she's a doll besides that can sing with the best of them.

Ford-boy : well, what's wrong with the attempt to sanitive reality into a G-rating is it causes extreme cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy, not to mention it is the reality God created, if you believe in that sort of thing. Such as the effort to install massive guilt in males over biological reality or insist the Grand Canyon was the result of the flood or any thousands of other silly things which are the result of imposing an artificial fake plastic template over the real world and science.

Many non-believers have higher morals and ethics because they act not out of fear of punishment in the next life, but because it is the humane thing to do. Secular humanism is a lot more godly than much of christendom.

Listen people, the God of Love is going to tortue you with fire for eternity if you don't do it right! Cringe in fear, all ye without any God-given sense. There is no hell. Be motivated by love, not the spiritual terrorism that many christian parents inflict on their children, which rightly should be considered child abuse and outlawed.

I know this won't sell with the crowd who reads the "Left Behind" series and gets off fantasizing about the suffering and slow death of everyone who doesn't agree with their tiny tinny worldview.

tiredcitizen says: "In our present society it is forbidden to criticize any group of people, except Christians. "

Nope. Take heart. You can still make fun of white men, fat people, short people and gun-owners. (Though, you might want to take care when making fun of a gun-owner personally when he's packing. :D)

Bomb, I thought you said you were a believer? Sounds to me like you lied to catch our attention. If you're an athiest, fine, if you don't believe all of what's in the Bible, fine. Just be honest about it and have an intelligent conversation.

It doesn't take profanity, graphic violence, or overt promiscuity to be expressive. Try listening to some orchestral symphonic works (start with Shostakovich-lots of anger, rage, and political discontent) and you'll see what I mean. It's hard to cuss through a clarinet. If using text as a backdrop for your art, creating an image of anger or lust or any other strong (possibly dark) emotion without being crass is a sign of artistic intelligence. Making a sensual painting without showing naked boobs is masterful creativity. You imply that the truly enlightened have to graphically present the worst humanity has to offer in order to be truly "liberated" and expressive. I beg to differ. Creativity is being able to say "I love..." or "I hate..." without directly saying it.

"Many non-believers have higher morals and ethics because they act not out of fear of punishment in the next life, but because it is the humane thing to do. Secular humanism is a lot more godly than much of christendom."

Do you have any proof or statistics that demonstrate this? The Bible that I've read and the God that I've studied teach doing what's right. Ever hear of Jesus? He had a few things to say about this very topic. Check him out. You might learn a thing or two.

Now, spiritual terrorism? Seriously, man. Come off it, will ya? It would take a month to write all this, but a couple of basic beliefs of Christianity are that of the eternal God and eternal life. I know it's terrible to think that God might have consequences in mind for screwing up, but you have absolutely no right to call for the banning of religion. Check out the first ammendment of the Constitution. You know, the one that says that congress shall make no law inhibiting the free practice of religion?

So much for "tolerance," eh? You happy and loving secular humanist, you. It's always funny how those that criticize Christians' supposed intolerance are the first to spew out hatred and vitriol towards Christians. You obviously know very little about Christianity. It's about life, not death. It's about eternal paradise, not suffering. It's about believing in the all-powerful, ever living God that created humanity in His image. Read a little bit of the New Testament, and you might just see that. Otherwise, you only churn out empty criticism.

Well, ford-boy, your comments are hyperbolic and ad hominem so there is little point in replying to your agitated indignation. I know quite a bit about chrisitanity - as my dad was a pastor, probably a bit more than you. As I said, I am a believer, but not in the christian religion. I am a Jesusist, if you will. And no, I don't believe in hell or in a loving God that would torture his children that he sent his son to die for with fire for any amount of time. I am also a secular humanist and tolerant liberal, as all true christians are. What you percieve as intolerance is the rejection of pseudo-christians as a victim status group since they were the oppressors throughout the last 1600 yrs. Right now in the US, the evangelical right wing who call themselves christian sanction mass mudrer and war crimes while agressively promoting corporate big brother facism, racism and sexism. They serve the rich and worshp Mammon. You cannot serve God and Mammon and it is therefore impossible for a true christian to be a republican. Anyway, you have your conceits and mistaken prejudices about life and I do not have the time to dissuade you of them, nor would I attempt to do so.

Bomb, who's the one making ad hominem attacks here? You tell me that true Christians are liberal? How? You claim that "true" Christians shouldn't believe in Heaven or Hell. Where is your Biblical evidence of this? God and that Jesus guy that you say you know so much about said a few words about eternal life in the Bible. I'm not the one you should be arguing with. Take your arguments to them and see what they have to say.

I'm not on here to have a scriptural debate. It's neither here nor there. Of course there will be disagreements between Christians and non-believers. Disagreements are inevitable between believers. The point is to just have a mature, rational, intelligent conversation. You just make inflamatory claims and define Christians in ways that you can't back up. Christians promote racism and sexism? We sanction mass murder and war crimes? Where is your proof of this outside of nonsensical left-wing rhetoric?

By the way, whom have I oppressed as a Christian? Tell me. You can't make insane accusations without some kind of hard evidence. Christians get executed in parts of this world just for being Christians, and you're telling me that we are the oppressors? Wow, do you have a backwards view on life.