Israel supporters on this post seem like a decent people who are trying to make reasoned argument from a clearly indecent assumption. Which is:

"Muslims are inherently evil and can't be trusted under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. So what's the point of even engaging them.”?

Here's how I see it. Radical Muslim ideology has been around for centuries, and have typically been put down by the established order...often savagely. These radicals have, traditionally been considered outsiders and freaks of Muslim society.

Remember the PLO of the 70s and 80s had a political identity, not Islamic.

Radical Islam first started to raise its ugly head in the 80's with the fall of the Shah (Shiite) and US funding for the Taliban (Sunni). All of a sudden these loonies were treated as heros...either fighting the atheist Russians, or the tyrannical Shah.

Though Israel can't be blamed for planting the seed of radical Islam in their back yard, they can certainly be blamed for carefully watering, fertilizing and nurturing the plant. Now radical Islam isn't just the sapling that it's traditionally been in the Middle East, but a mighty tree.

The indignities of appropriating land in the west bank (and bull dozing olive trees), putting up road blocks, carving up the west bank like an piece of swiss cheese and robbing the palatines of any genuine hope of having their country back, is the prefect fertilizer for growing radical Islam in the West Bank and Gaza.

Israel has morphed from the "tiny strip of land, surrounded by enemies" to a regional superpower that isn’t afraid to kick some ass. Several years ago the military dropped a 2000 lb bomb in a residential area of Gaza simply to kill a Hamas "spiritual" leader. At the time it was considered outrageous, even in Israel.

Now, the state of Israel can cavalierly shut of power to whole cities and hospitals, conduct military raids that kill hundreds of citizens and randomly rough up and intimidate regular citizens, with no sense of remorse or outrage. Israel and its citizens and are immune to the cruelties it inflicts on the Palestine population. But they are also shocked…SHOCKED that these 20 and 30 year old Palestinians are turning to Hamas.

I will bet you dollars to donuts that if you sampled the poor, dirty and angry Palestine kids who are throwing rocks, exploding bombs and are full of rage, that few, if any, would know much about the Koran or its central tenants.

At their very core, joining Hamas and firing rockets is the ultimate “fuck you” to a foreign governing authority that continues to appropriate their land and subject their families living with indignities and in a constant state of fear.

Hamas and Hezbollah are strong oak trees that Israel has feed, water and nurtured over the decade.

"Muslims are inherently evil and can't be trusted under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. So what's the point of even engaging them.”?

Is the only fig leaf Israel apologists seem to be clinging to.

I believe that Carter is a hero and visionary for understanding that dialogue is the first step in lancing this boil.

I agree with a lot of what you say. I'm not a real history zealot, however, wasn't it then President Jimmy Carter who pulled the rug out from under the Shah on basically humanitary concerns? One could argue that Hezbollah would never have seen the light of day but for Carter's short sightedness. We now know the replacement regime is far more repressive. Their "democratic"elections are staged through the removal of any candidates that they deem to be unworthy prior to the elections. Their economy is in shambles as they sit on a sea of oil and have not a single refinery. I have read that if you take all the Arab countries GNP's, they, combined are barely greater than Spain's! One would have to wonder what we would do if all our neighbors ganged up and tried to annihilate us, would we be so willing to give back the land that now distances us from our enemy? I have read that there are geographical reasons why Isreal doesn't want to give back certain "strips" of land because it narrows their defense capabilities.Until Hamas and Fatah both agree to consider the recognition of Isreal, there cannot be a good reason to start talks. Good point about the kids. The situaiton is starkly similar to Belfast and the constant perpetuation of hate that it engenders. From the Isreali perspective, to trust them is to risk extinction.

Meeinstein2, you have a real mish mash of points. So here goes.

1) Yes Carter cut off the Shah...as he did other dictators. But like the old buddist saying, "pluck a leaf from a tree, and the whole universe shakes", the consequences of any action cannot be forseen. In any event, it would be foolish to hold Carter cupable for Hezbullah

2) "if you take all Arab Countries GNP, the combines are barely greater than Spain's". This is a slightly more upscale version of the argument that "Muslims as really dumb and should not be given consideration." Furthermore, it's not true, if you consider the GNP of the Gulf states including the UAE. In any event, problems in other Arab states are their own and have nothing to do with the plight of Palistinans in Gaza and West Bank...unless we take the racist view that all Arabs are interchangable, so bad management in Egypt means the the Palistinans should be grateful to be under Isrealie occupation.

3) "Until Fatah and Hamas both agree to consider the recognition of Isreal, there cannot be a good reason to start talks". Image you're the political leadership of Fatah and Hamas for a minute. When you're at the negotiation table, you obliviously want statehood, cut back on some of the settlements, maybe some cash to pay for the fix up. Now what do you have to offer. Absolutely nothing...other than recognition of Isreal. You're asking them to give up the one and only major concession they can bring to the table before they even hold talks. Also...remember those angry kids...what influance or control do you think these leaders will have to impose any type of settlement on their followers if they blow their whole wad before even starting negotiations.

4) "From the Isrealie perspective to trust them is to risk extinction." Finally, you get to the heart of it. Isreal is acting out of fear, not any level of rational thought. If the county always acts out of fear, that tree will grow stronger and sprout further trees. The alternative is to hang on forever, while the Palestine population grows angrier and more desperate. The real risk for Isreal is not "trusting" but doing nothing and simply let this powder keg explode. The US is obviously going to support the country no matter what. Fortunately there is a ray of hope. Jimmy Carter. You may not like his words or actions, but he's doing what necessary for both Isreal and the Palestinans. He's starting a dialogue. Let's have the good sense not to stop him.

Bullspotter:

3) "Until Fatah and Hamas both agree to consider the recognition of Isreal, there cannot be a good reason to start talks". Image you're the political leadership of Fatah and Hamas for a minute. When you're at the negotiation table, you obliviously want statehood, cut back on some of the settlements, maybe some cash to pay for the fix up. Now what do you have to offer. Absolutely nothing...other than recognition of Isreal. You're asking them to give up the one and only major concession they can bring to the table before they even hold talks. Also...remember those angry kids...what influance or control do you think these leaders will have to impose any type of settlement on their followers if they blow their whole wad before even starting negotiations.

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Recognizing Israel is the only thing they (Palastine) can bring to the table so they shouldn’t have to give it up?? This is ridiculous. Lets see, Israel has to give up land, money and recognize Palestine as a state and all Palestine has to do is simply recognize the right for Israel to exist. Seems like more than a fair trade for Palestine to me. And, it seems like the only trade that could happen for peace to occur. Your statement shows that people who sympathize with Palestine do not want a fair trade, they do not believe that Israel has a right to exist. The irony is that if Palestine doesn’t ever recognize this right, Palestine will continue to threaten violence in order to force a state that they do not think has the right to exist to support their own very existence.

Enjoying the exchange of thoughts. Here's my kick-back from your last response and I appeciate the time you put in it. 1) I'm not calling anyone stupid. It just seems sad that under Islamic stewardship the general population seems to suffer greatly and their culture degrades rather than florishes. I never concluded that all Arabs are interchangeable. Iraq proves that point. Tribal is likely a better term. Palistinians certainly suffered under Arafat as he syphoned off aid into his own bank accounts. 3) You forget the most valuable bargaining chip the Fatah and Hamas have in their hand, a lasting peace! Recognition just starts the conversation. There are geographical considerations that would have to be considered so that "the rightfully paranoid" Isreal doesn't have to protect boundaries that are too narrow. At the moment Hamas is stll in the "annihilation" mode. 4) Isreal has a good reason to be afraid as it was her neighbors who tried to wipe her out once already.

[Let's see, Israel has to give up land, money and recognize Palestine as a state and all Palestine has to do is simply recognize the right for Israel to exist.]

What the hell are you talking about? You must be kidding? You should be naïve to believe such allegations. All that Israel needs is time, enough time for the "Fait accompli" and support from the so-called International community.
The "fait accompli" is not peace. Israel needs to have 'Goodwill and intentions'

No one should forget those leaders who gave their lives for peace, Saddat of Egypt and Yitzhak Rabin of Israel.

For me the recognition issue is a mere pretext. Most Arab states have signed either publicly or secretly for peace with Israel, which is an implicit recognition of its right to exist. BTW, they are still engaged in this process.

[The irony is that if Palestine doesn’t ever recognize this right, Palestine will continue to threaten violence in order to force a state that they do not think has the right to exist to support their own very existence.]

Recognition doesn't hinder declaring war and or invade any sovereign state.

See Iraq and Kuwait, then USA and Iraq, let alone USA, Ethiopia and Somalia.

Amen!

Talking back and forth is fun. See we’re on opposite sides of the fence, but we’re cordial and likely to find common ground.

That’s why talking to one’s “enemies” is necessary. Clinging to fear is just a dead-end.

Many years ago, while I was a kid out of school, I had a boss who gave me a wonderful piece of advise. I was having difficult with a senior trader, who was a real SOB and tyrant. Boss’ advise was, that I need to go speak to this fellow in person because, “You can hate someone in concept…but if you’re staring at them face to face, it’s very hard to keep hating them.”

Keeping Israel and Hamas apart, is a great way to ensure they just keep hating each other.

If Hamas was an Israeli guerilla group demanding of Israel to strictly obey the Torah or else, I could perfectly understand why Israel should not talk to it.

But once you go to someone else's land and occupy it for over 40 years and confiscate land and transfer civilians on to it and the people who are resisting you were born and raised under that occupation their entire lives, then you have no excuse whatsoever to not talk to these people regardless of what they think of you or have done to you.

And if you make the issue the resistance you're getting to your occupation and refuse to recognize the rights of the people you're occupying then you deserve everything coming your way!!

I agree in that we both were testing our understanding and trying to find clarity. Do you believe Hamas cares about arriving at an understanding with Isreal? I guess its possible because Fatah was founded by Aafat in 1959 with the aim to destroy Isreal. Likewise, in 1964 the PLO also inscribed in their national charter, " the liquidation of Isreal". The extermination of the Jews has been going on for over 900 years from their migration from Persia to the current state of Isreal. "Why I left the Jihad", by Walid Shoebat chronicles the difficulties they survived. It is a unique paadox in that Shoebat lived both sides of the conflict. I don't know if too much blood has been shed to reverse the course here. Some times as in Belfast, I think they just grew tired of the bloodshed.