I wish Applebaum and other Obama proponents in XX Factor would spend more time explaining why Obama's background would make him a successful president and less time attacking Clinton. I'm afraid I'm learning more about the deep set feelings of the writers than I am about either candidate, and frankly, I know very little of Obama except that he gives inspiring speeches.

After I read Applebaum's piece debunking Clinton's roll in bringing piece to Northern Ireland, I read several other more balanced treatments of the issue on the web, including today's article on Clinton's foreign policy experience in the NY Times. While I had very low expectations about what a First Lady could accomplish in her roll and didn't put much stock in Clinton's claims, I was impressed to learn that Clinton had travelled 5 times to Northern Ireland to advocate for peace. While several people who participated in the N. Ireland peace process say Clinton had little to no influence, Applebaum fails to note that John Hume, who shared a Nobel peace prize for his efforts, said that Clinton had a "pivotal role." (see NY Times)

Clinton, no doubt, overstates her role in helping bring peace, but I think it is quite significant that as First Lady she had any role at all. More than I ever realized at the time, it seems Clinton countinously pushed the boundaries of the traditional role of a First Lady to bring positive change. Applebaum would have us believe that she showed up once for a meeting with a handful of women in N. Ireland and that was that. Yet tt is clear that her efforts in five trips to the country went well beyond a single meeting, and that even if she never was a part of the peace negotation process, her advocacy was real and not a "wee silly."

Rather than waste my time reading more on Slate about why Clinton "really is a monster" and other unhelpful nonsense, I would truly like to learn more about Obama's accomplishments and what others believe are his qualifications to be president. Today's article in the NY Times about Obama's senate experience, "Star Power, Minor Role," in that regard, was disappointing. I learned about a man with great potential, but apparently little impact.

You remember in 1992 when Bill Clinton, about the same age as Obama now, was running against GHW Bush?

Bush vigorously criticized CLINTON'S lack of experience, claiming that Clinton knew less than his dog Millie about how to be President. Ultimately Grandpa Bush was shocked to find that this didn't mean as much as "the vision thing."

Now Obama, with a far richer background and apparently far better judgment than Clinton ever brought to the table is criticized by many aging Clinton supporters for the same things that were once said about the Clintons themselves. It was a bad argument then and it is a worse argument now.

Oh yeah, and if Clinton was strong with vision, then it is far to say that Obama is a virtuoso.

You want to know Obama? The background material is all available. If, like Poppy Bush, you are confused by "the vision thing," I suggest that you read "The Audacity of Hope" and "Dreams of My Father."

As you do, please feel free to compare them to the ideas that the Clintons got so much credit for bringing to the table.

This is a partial repost from an earlier thread but here's a partial list:

"As to a list of some of Sen. Obama's accomplishments: working with Democrats and Republicans to bring about an entire overhaul of Illinois' death penalty system; ethics reform of the corrupt State Senate; actually *passing* some health care legislation. In the Senate, passing legislation to get veteran's benefits improved at Walter Reed so they didn't have to pay for their food and phone calls while they recovered; working with Democrats and Republicans on nuclear non-proliferation; his very first bill was to raise the Pell Grant to $5100, and, although that didn't pass, he helped pass the new Higher Education Act recently; he passed a law w/ the guy from MO to give gas stations tax credits for switching their pumps over to ethanol fuel. He was elected Editor of the Harvard Law Review because he was so good at bringing contentious people together. And, personally, I find this charming: he hasn't missed a parent-teacher conference all year. Aside from that, he hasn't done much with his life. He IS NOT the second coming of Jesus; Michelle will tell you he's just a man, but I think it's fair to say he's fairly-well qualified to at least TRY to become President, donchathink?"

I was so ticked off, I neglected to add the Coburn-Obama Transparency Act that lets you go to USAspending.gov and see where all your federal contract money is going; the Lugar-Obama Initiative which helps reduce the number of land mines and shoulder-fired missles; and several different laws which all became "the most sweeping Senate ethics reform since Watergate," the (hokily named) Honest Leadership and Open Government Act. There was some other stuff to stop the military from unfairly discharging soldiers with "personality disorders" when they're really suffering from PTSD, and divestment from Iran's oil and gas industry, some bioweapons stuff. But, aside from that, the Junior Senator from Illinois just been chillin'.

I'm still waiting to hear about the LEGISLATIVE accomplishments of the Junior Senator from New York.

Let's start with Obama's blueprint (including 64 pages of specifics):

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In addition to more than 800 bills sponsored in the Illinois State Senate (passing about 200 of them), he has worked on legislation in the US Senate dealing with nuclear nonproliferation, and transparency in government, including disclosure of earmarks and limits on no-bid contracts. Not inconsequential stuff.

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Thanks to this guy (who has really done his homework):

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Yea, it's pro-Obama, he tells you so right up front. So take what you read with the knowledge that the guy writing it is an Obama supporter and subtract whatever weight you feel necessary. But he's done the legwork on Obama's career and accomplishments.

Now that you've seen that there ARE proposals, feel free to argue with the proposals, argue with the specifics, but don't say there are neither proposals nor specifics. Do not pretend he's done nothing. Argue that Obama can't possibly accomplish his lofty goals if that's what you believe. But the idea that he sits in the back of the Senate with his blankie, sucking his thumb as the grownups conduct business is a load of crap.

I guess since Hillary spends so much time attacking Obama and so little talking about her own selling points, we assume that's all Clinton supporters respond to. I think the other posters did a pretty good job of putting Obama's points out there.

And make sure you check in with what paper endorses who before reading up on their take on a given candidate. Ever since the NYT started jumping through hoops for the Bush administration to prove it wasn't overly liberal-biased it's been having an identity crisis.

Lono wrote:

"In addition to more than 800 bills sponsored in the Illinois State Senate (passing about 200 of them), he has worked on legislation in the US Senate dealing with nuclear nonproliferation, and transparency in government, including disclosure of earmarks and limits on no-bid contracts. Not inconsequential stuff."

Read article below for a less rosy view of Obama's accomplishments in IL state senate by a reporter who covered him for quite some time. He says bills were funnelled to Obama by Illinois Senate Majority Leader Emil Jones, who saw Obama's 'higher' potential and help pad his resume for a run as US Senator. I pasted excerpts below - the whole article, published on February 28, 2008 is at this link.

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from article by Todd Spivak of Dallas Observer:

"Then, in 2002, dissatisfaction with President Bush and Republicans on the national and local levels led to a Democratic sweep of nearly every level of Illinois state government. For the first time in 26 years, Illinois Democrats controlled the governor's office as well as both legislative chambers.

The white, race-baiting, hard-right Republican Illinois Senate Majority Leader James "Pate" Philip was replaced by Emil Jones Jr., a gravel-voiced, dark-skinned black senator known for chain-smoking cigarettes on the Senate floor.

Jones had served in the Illinois Legislature for three decades. He represented a district on the Chicago South Side not far from Obama's. He became Obama's kingmaker.

Several months before Obama announced his U.S. Senate bid, Jones called his old friend Cliff Kelley, a former Chicago alderman who now hosts the city's most popular black call-in radio program.

I called Kelley last week, and he recollected the private conversation as follows:

"He said, 'Cliff, I'm gonna make me a U.S. senator.'"

"Oh, you are? Who might that be?"

"Barack Obama."

Jones appointed Obama sponsor of virtually every high-profile piece of legislation, angering many rank-and-file state legislators who had more seniority than Obama and had spent years championing the bills.

"I took all the beatings and insults and endured all the racist comments over the years from nasty Republican committee chairmen," state Senator Rickey Hendon, the original sponsor of landmark racial profiling and videotaped confession legislation yanked away by Jones and given to Obama, complained to me at the time. "Barack didn't have to endure any of it, yet, in the end, he got all the credit.

"I don't consider it bill jacking," Hendon told me. "But no one wants to carry the ball 99 yards all the way to the 1-yard line and then give it to the halfback who gets all the credit and the stats in the record book."

During his seventh and final year in the Illinois Senate, Obama's stats soared. He sponsored a whopping 26 bills passed into law—including many he now cites in his presidential campaign when attacked as inexperienced. It was a stunning achievement that started him on the path of national politics, and he couldn't have done it without Jones.

Before Obama ran for U.S. Senate in 2004, he was virtually unknown even in his own state. Polls showed less than 20 percent of Illinois voters had ever heard of Barack Obama.

Jones further helped raise Obama's profile by having him craft legislation addressing the day-to-day tragedies that dominated local news headlines."

Spivak goes on to discuss how Obama rewarded his state senate mentor:

"So how has Obama repaid Jones?

Last June, to prove his commitment to government transparency, Obama released a comprehensive list of his earmark requests for fiscal year 2008. It comprised more than $300 million in pet projects for Illinois, including tens of millions for Jones' Senate district.

Shortly after Jones became Senate president, I remember asking his view on pork-barrel spending.

I'll never forget what he said:

"Some call it pork; I call it steak."

end quoted article.

Does this mean Obama did anything illegal? Probably not. But it does blast his reputation as some kind of 'knight in shining armor' type politician right out of the water, and call his accomplishments into serious question.

Oh, yes I am a Clinton supporter - and I don't think she is any more or less of a political animal than Obama is, I'm just tired of the bullshit hype.

It's a pretty piss-poor article by a guy who admits he couldn't hack it as a journalist in Chicago. I have no doubt Obama got a helping hand from the Chicago machine and that he sent some earmarks back for it but that sort of information is available on his website. Where's Hillary's?

Obama spoke out publicly against the war at a very vulnerable time for his career in a fairly purple state. What was Hillary doing?

We'll stop talking him up like knight in shining armor when Hillary stops acting like the antichrist.

Lotsa innuendo, some guilt by association, some hearsay, some ad hominem, and a curious number of people who, after expressing concern about Obama, back him anyway.

I don't see Obama as a knight in shining armor, I never did. I see him as preferable to Hillary Clinton.

and what great thing has hillary done?

what clinton is about scares me to death. she thinks we can go back to the 90's. AH NO we can't. living in the past tells me allot about what she can't do.

THE PAST IS THE PAST

Might I suggest with all due respect that you visit Obama's campaign website. I think this will provide you with some meaningful information on the candidate and his positions. I found it a good way to help me get much more familiar with him as a person and a candidate.

Thanks.