And the facts are simply this: there is a shortage of dinner-party ready, socially competent, genteel and educated men. And if these good men appear to be marrying women "below" their status, it's certainly because these women are tolerable in comparison to women of a certain look and professional status.

Men aren't getting off the market earlier. That notion is utterly ridiculous. In another article today, it was suggested that the women men found most attractive were the ones that appeared to be the most open-minded toward a short-term, sexual relationship.

Have we considered that our oversexed, promiscuous culture of immediate gratification has perhaps led men to being underdeveloped socially. Certainly, there is every opportunity for a man with the slightest amount of charm to get a bedroom date for the evening, so he really doesn't have to go around exceeding anyone's expectations.

The other misconception is the assumption that a man's value/looks/social-ease remain static from his 20s-40s. The most socially accepted and chased after men tend to be the hardest to catch, as they're always holding out for something better to come along. Unfortunately, you see a man at 40 worse for wear after years of playing bachelor (research shows married men are far healthier), increasingly stubborn and set in his ways after being alone for so long and achingly bored with the social scene.

My point is this: as convenient and cute an explanation as game theory is, it simply cannot apply if there is in fact, a shortage of socially adept men at any age and it certainly does not hold up if we assume that men get more socially inept and less healthy as they age, whereas women (who may not become more physically attractive with age) do tend to become more socially capable and professionally accomplished. Hence, male and female 7s in their twenties may develop into a 6 and an 8 respectively, and what would've once been a fair match, now becomes the woman settling.

Also to consider, a man who is willingly the "total package" is usually motivated to be that way (smart, charming, kind and well-mannered) by a desire to get "off-the-market". Last I checked, the poor manners involved in a drunk hook-up weren't the actions of a man ready to get married.

kristin9692:

And the facts are simply this: there is a shortage of dinner-party ready, socially competent, genteel and educated men.

...

Have we considered that our oversexed, promiscuous culture of immediate gratification has perhaps led men to being underdeveloped socially. Certainly, there is every opportunity for a man with the slightest amount of charm to get a bedroom date for the evening, so he really doesn't have to go around exceeding anyone's expectations.

Here here kristin9692

II was guilty of this myself, but we women who got into dating like men in our 20's, getting into 'hook-ups' and casual friends-with-benefits situations based on sexual chemistry, and trying to create relationships out of sexual attraction are simply training the most attractive, charming men that they don't have behave any differently than they would like to, and what comes easiest to them.

When we grow out of that phase in our 30s, we then run into the problem of facing the very monsters we ourselves created, if we're not too busy being confused about why our dating lives are growing more and more unfulfilling and keep trying to get different results with the same behaviour.

We made our beds, we have to lie in them or finally learn how to properly make hospital-corners.

This really is toooo funny.

You are overlooking the fact that many young men have watched the female-skewed judiciary pillage their fathers in divorces for two generations now. Why marry some girl to have her divorce you in an average 8 years and take at least half your assets, 75% (statistically) of which were created with your salary. Then you get to pay an incredibly unrealistic percentage of child support to this woman who will use the govt to come after you and throw you in jail. Now the custody and visitation you get is often not equal or commensurate with the child support you pay and if mom decides to use the kids by withdrawing visitation it will take you 4 years to get into court. By contrast, miss a child support payment and see how fast the state enforces it.

Young men are not stupid. Women over the last 40 years have made their own bed and now have to sleep in it. The current generation of women are now reaping the fruits and finding they must marry 10, 15, 20 years their senior to find a guy. You have your mothers to thank for this.

realengr-- I couldn't agree with you more on this. I would consider the divorce rate to be lumped in with what I was talking about in our oversexualized, needs-it-now culture. I'm certainly not proud of how women have acted over the past 10, 15 or 20 years-- marrying to divorce as soon as the going gets tough. That's the point I was trying to make: perhaps the good men are scarce because women haven't created ideal market settings for exceptional products to make their way on to the market.

"Unfortunately, you see a man at 40 worse for wear after years of playing bachelor (research shows married men are far healthier), increasingly stubborn and set in his ways after being alone for so long and achingly bored with the social scene. "

I'm sure there are more 40 year old never married women with the qualities you mention -- especially because of a woman's biological clock and probably with about 6 cats. :)

"male and female 7s in their twenties may develop into a 6 and an 8 respectively, and what would've once been a fair match, now becomes the woman settling."

I couldn't disagree with you more including your reasoning behind it. It does, however, support the theory mentioned in multiple occassions on this board that the real reason there is a perceived shortage of good/available men is that women who are 7s think they are actually an 8 and, therefore, think they're too good to date a guy who is a 7 (that based on your reasoning you'd probably rate a 6.)

Actually, at 27-- I'd consider myself a 7 (attractive, fit and I have a graduate degree) and I'm engaged to an 8 (the only reason he's not a 9 or 10 would be because he lacks some romance and manners at times) but I can say I know more than a few men who at age 40 are 4s at best and still trying to aim for that 9 they could've gotten in their twenties, therefore the hot-shot personality only detracts from their further deteriorating selves.

I agree with some of your points, kristin, but the whole thing is flawed by the fact that there are fewer quality specimens of BOTH sexes as time goes on, to the point where debating who gets screwed more is pointless - both sexes do.

The low-quality men may tend to share some traits, but so do the low-quality women - disproportionately overweight, disproportionately bitter, often just as set in their ways, and often so hungry for a baby you can smell it (which is the only thing I see that may make them more willing to settle and compromise than men). The idea that men naturally become a downgrade over time and women naturally become an upgrade is pretty hard to back up with reality, at least, from my experience.

The problem is that if you want to have kids a woman past 40 or so can quickly become a zero.

I know a lot of single guys who see their friends get divorced and get screwed over. It makes a rather strong impression.

Interesting thread. However, no one seems to have considered the idea that some available men, perhaps as a result of the aforementioned "women choose" model, are simply enjoying the role-reversal that invariably follows a female's realization that her pool of eligible males is shrinking faster and faster. If you think about it in terms of an auction as the original article suggests, and assume the men involved are aware of the shrinking size of the auction pool, it's inevitable that the few remaining "auctionables" would realize that their respective worth has skyrocketed since the beginning of the auction, even though their initial qualities may not have changed or may even have decayed. In its drastically simplified form, the social dating scene has become a study in microeconomics. On the one hand, the decisive young woman who chooses to marry while the pool of attractive, socially adept men is still large and competitive will (in my opinion at least) have a better chance of landing a "catch" than the woman who holds out for her perfect mate, possibly turning away multiple suitors for relatively insignificant flaws. Simultaneously, at the other end of the spectrum, older women who are approaching the proverbial point of diminishing returns are driving the value of even marginally attractive single men through the roof. So essentually we are left with a female-created market in which the gradually decreasing supply of (and just-as-steadily increasing demand for) eligible bachelors is the defining characteristic. Ironic, isn't it? The end result of our "women choose" model is a market in which men have an exponentially increasing degree of choice in their mate.

Thanks seizethecarp (rb)-- you made me think of something else. While the author of the original article that men marry women from a lower market bracket, perhaps we completely missed the boat altogether by forgetting that there are most probably very different attributes of a product that bring a male to the market vs. the female. Perhaps the women referred to are superior in some other way than just being swift and cunning...

One thing I'm almost certain of is that men are more likely to settle than women. Women will get off the market for far less, much earlier. As they mature, it takes a superior partner to attract their attention. Men, on the other hand, could have seized the right girl at the wrong time (breaking it off by not being ready to marry), but usually end up going with the first girl that fits the bill once the men become aware of their own desire to marry-- often ended up with a girl much less suited to them in the long run than the one that got away.

kristin9692:

women (who may not become more physically attractive with age) do tend to become more socially capable and professionally accomplished.

But social and professional accomplishment is not the first or the second thing a man looks for, either for a hook-up or marriage. Men look first and foremost for youth and physical attractiveness. That a woman improves in the social or professional fields is far less important to men than a man improving in those fields would be to women.