Stealing your neighbors land and enslaving him has gone out of style in most of the world, but it is still in vogue in China. The Chinese have no more right to rule Tibet than Nazi Germany had to rule Poland, France, or Great Britain. Greed and arrogance not really rational, and greed and arrogance are why China conquered and occupies Tibet. If the Tibetans weren't Buddhists, you'd get more than the very occasional riot-Tibet would look like Palestine. I'd guess that in two more generations, Tibet will look just like Palestine, because the Chinese will finally have expunged Buddhism in Tibet-ending the Tibetan tradition of compassion and pacifism. As we can see from the riot, the Chinese have made good progress so far, and the youngest Tibetans have no patience for non-violence. Truly, under the Chinese Communist Party the east is red--red with Tibetan blood. The Tibetans have as much right to defend themselves against a brutal and ruthless occupying power as the French did when the French Resistance heroically fought the Nazis. Vive la France, and Free Tibet!

Probably true, in our perspective OldSalt. However, if your Chinese and your heritage is ancient up to the Qing dynasty, you might look at it differantly.

It was only in 1911 when Tibet proclaimed its independence from China proper. The Chinese have never recognized that, nor has any other country, if I'm not mistaken.

What to do?

Would Lowell Thomas know if he was alive today? Now there was an "old salt."

I have read accounts of the few westerners who managed to penetrate Tibet's pre-invasion isolation. There was no sign of Chinese culture, writing, government, nor any other reason visible to those visitors to Tibet to lead them to think of Tibet as anything other than a free and independent country.

Aggressors always make some trumped-up claim to justify their aggression. Just look at the history of Nazi propaganda before they invaded Czechoslovakia, if you want to see an example of the kind of thing the Chinese are doing. Shall we apologize to the Germans, and give them back France, and Belgium, and Poland, and Denmark, and Norway, and Austria, and the many other countries that they swallowed up? Are we obliged to give the Chinese equivalent of Joseph Goebbels equal time, and the credibility equivalent to Churchill, or Roosevelt, or Queen Elizabeth?

Tyrtaios, you name yourself after a famous Greek-shall we give the Nazis back Greece? He respected those who fought for their homeland, why don't you?

I am a freedom-loving American, and my heart aches when a peaceful people lose their liberty and are oppressed by a huge, ruthless, and brutal aggressor that they have no hope of successfully resisting. Free Tibet!

Hello again OldSalt. That's the spirit I'm looking for!

Again, though, what to do?

It seems western governments now fear China's ecomonic power.

Old Salt switched from Tibet to Iraq.

"Stealing your neighbors land and enslaving him has gone out of style in most of the world, but it is still in vogue in the US. The Americans have no more right to rule Iraq than Nazi Germany had to rule Poland, France, or Great Britain. Greed and arrogance not really rational, and greed and arrogance are why American conquered and occupies Iraq. If the Iraqis... I'd guess that in two more generations, Iraq will look just like the US, because the Americans will finally have expunged Islam in Iraq ending the Iraqi tradition...."

China was so destroyed by Imperialism from Britain, Germany, Portugal and France, that her authority over all sorts of areas was either stolen or diminshed; the reassertion of China's power in Tibet, which had been a principality of China, in 1959 was overwhelmingly peaceful, unlike Bush's invasion of Iraq, over which we had never had control, and with which we had an often hostile relationship.

The Income of Tibetans has been going up; their access to education and health care has been going up, unlike that of Iraq.

Take the speck out of your own eye, first, Old Salt.

OldSalt wrote the following post at 03/30/2008 7:58 PM: Stealing your neighbors land and enslaving him has gone out of style in most of the world, but it is still in vogue in China.

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For a moment I thought you were referring to the illegal "occupation" of Iraq by U.S. forces or the illegal "occupation" of Palestinian land by Israel. But, as you wrote, it is still in vogue in these countries, that's for sure.

Race riots is an ugly affair.

It is not the Chinese who enslaves the Tibetans, it's the Lamas. Prior to China's invasion to Tibet, most Tibetan are in serfdom, and the message of 'peace and pacifism' works to stop the slaves from rebelling against their religious leaders.

The Chinese Government has a horrible human right record, and it's not limited to the Tibetans. The cultural revolution didn't differentiate between the Tibetan or Hui or Hans : they all got screwed. The Chinese government today has come a long way since then. The Chinese Government remains an oppressive one party dictatorship, but the leadership is genuinely interested in bettering the lives of the Chinese citizen. This is a huge paradigm change.

Nationalism is the force that keeps China together. The cultural memory of China being butchered into pieces by Western powers still linger in the Chinese cultural memory, so the chance of Tibet becoming independent due to "Western pressure" is zilch. The best the Tibetan can hope for is better autonomy. Burning down Chinese businesses along with the Han working inside them is NOT the way to argue for change.

Better government, more religious freedom, environment protection, preservation of culture, these are all common issue that affect everyone in China. Narrowing it to a pure racial issue pits the 6 million Tibetans against the 1.3billion Chinese. I would encourage those who are interested in what really happened (as oppose to what the Western or Chinese media reports) to look at the blogs by those living in Tibet. (hopefully before the Chinese censor gets to them). The riot is simply a tragedy of humanity.

All these laughable excuses for a Chinese tyranny that is immense, canny, powerful, hugely suppressive of everyone not Han Chinese, and quite honestly playing foreign (our own) governments and multi-national businesses for the fools that they have become. When I married my Chinese Wife, a woman named Hu Lin who had Chinese government contacts, I was truly astonished at the complete contempt and sub-human view she had of me, her Husband. Needless to say, the marriage only lasted a few months, 4 months and 1 week to be exact. The chauvinism and dominant purview of the World by the Chinese is little understood, but I got a small taste of it in that marriage, and I am telling you, I see no common interests with either that Chinese Government or it's people, myself. They are immensely dangerous especially by reason of their apologists, as well as their perceived inferiorities or slights or historical embarrassments.

The U.S. Navy and everyone in Asia knows, but maybe most Americans do not know, about a recent public snubbing of the U.S. Navy trying to make a prearranged port of call in Hong Kong, no longer a British Protectorate, rather a former democracy now under the utterly oppressive thumb of the Chinese dictators in Beijing, home of this year's 2008 Olympics. Get this: At the same time the Chinese made a none too subtle point of refusing the U.S. Navy it's scheduled port call in Hong Kong, the SAME CHINESE GOVERNMENT was sending a Chinese Navy Warship to make a first time in 40 years port call in Tokyo Harbor. Do you get the connection and the message, my fellow Americans? I can guarantee you that Japan and all of Asia got this Chinese message.

The Chinese are not and most probably will never be our friends, either politically or personally. They hold too many easy grudges, they have no liberal tradition of tolerance or respect for others, and their culture and history is not only inscrutable, but really not culturally up to our own standards of honesty, progress, and peace.

We should take the Chinese on forcefully on Taiwan, on Hong Kong, on Tibet, and on any other area of belligerence they care to experience with us. In my view, we should have taken all of Korea many years ago. The Chinese Suzerainty in North Korea is in fact the clearest lens by which America and the World can view the true character of the Chinese despots in Beijing.

I think that if Jimmy Carter could boycott the Olympics for his reasons, surely we can boycott these Chinese sponsored Olympics this year.

<<I am a freedom-loving American, and my heart aches when a peaceful people lose their liberty and are oppressed by a huge, ruthless, and brutal aggressor that they have no hope of successfully resisting.>> -Old Sodium

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I know...I felt the same way when I read about the genocide committed against the Native Americans in "A People's History of the United States" by professor Howard Zinn and the mistreatment and brutal slavery and exploitation of Blacks in this freedom-loving country whose Declaration of Independence reads: "...all men are created equal..." Ah, beautiful words; empty rhetoric!

PS: By the way, Old Sodium, does your heart ache when you see the peaceful people of Iraq being oppresed by a huge, ruthless and brutal foreign aggressor?

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Howard Zinn as I recall was an avowed Socialist. As for Native Americans, they live and work and socialize in America today, and prosper, as well as anyone else. My Boy Scout Troop 342 Scoutmaster was Abenaki indian by heritage, and so was his Son, Bill, my fellow Scout. He has worked in Chicago and Las Vegas as an EMT - Emergency Medical Technician, and he makes a good living at it, being of service to others. I dated an ex-U.S. Army female who was quite loyal to America, and a descendant of the Cherokee Indian Nation. I have an Encylopedia of Native American tribes, cultures, and peoples that I would trust for authority far more than any book written by a polemicist, historical or otherwise (yourself) such as Mr. Zinn. Chinese and their apologists such as yourself artfully change the subject, or throw out red herrings, because you do not want the focus to be on your own behavior, ideologies, or conflicts. The Han Chinese intolerance and taste for "Hegemony" is quite evident in your China's recent history, partcularly today in Tibet, Hong Kong, and with regard to all Chinese minorities, including Rural Folk, Chinese poor and elderly folks, and of course with regard to North Korea, billegerence towards neighbors such as India, Vietnam, Russia, Japan, Taiwan and the list goes on and on. Further, Chinese accomodate the genocide in Darfur region of Sudan remorselessly, and merely for economic reasons. Yes, the Chinese line, purported to be synchronous with "Third World" nation states, is to respect as "internal affairs" the genocides and other misdeeds of African tribal wars and other so-called legitimate or anyway United Nations sanctified Polities. But the nimbleness of the Chinese dance around the campfire of their own misguided policies and programs are recognized around the world by freedom loving people everywhere, including in China, for what they are -- intentional misrepresentations designed to escape responsibility for national crimes of immense proportion and ongoing challenge to the "good and decent opinion of mankind." Chinese diplomats are expert at citing democratic values chapter and verse, while their Chinese Government is totalitarian, one-party, oppressive, dangerous, aggressive, disingenuous, illiberal, anti-Catholic and quite profoundly evil. What else should we call the situation of Tibet Today? Big Brother little brother? Ongoing Chinese activities of brutal suppression in Tibet, merit the harshest Western reaction, which would certainly include boycotting the Olympics in Beijing, but which should go much further than that. People remember their mistreatment. Look at all the Russian hegemonic States rushing to join NATO now. Your Chinese hegemony over Tibet will not last, but it will be remembered, and not just by the Tibetans.

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