There is a pro-sex take on virginity that is frequently ignored. For me it comes from the pro-sex perspective of Hassidic Jewish practice.

The idea is that, of course people should be virgins until marriage... but marriage had (damn well) better happen by age 18 or 20 because, please, be real, people have needs. (And besides being without a partner is not compatible with approaching God...)

That seems reasonable to me. What is not reasonable is expecting people to remain virgin (or even chaste) if marriage is not in the offing in the very very near term. A 17 year old virgin (man or woman) holding on to chastity because there is a certain marriage awaiting within a year or two or three, is not an unreasonable sight. He or she may not be happy, but the personality is not distorted, and hope is on the horizon.

A 24 year old virgin, with no certainty of marriage, is a distorted, unhappy and pathetic personality. The cult of virginity is reasonable if it is tightly coupled to a cult of early marriage, (and of course applied equally to men and women.) The cult of virginity is sick if it is decoupled from early marriage, and results in twisted distorted personalities, in people who lie to themselves, in people who deny themselves the normal autoerotic pleasures, and in people who redefine "virginity" a bit too creatively, and on and on.

Virginity? Sure... but only if there are strong social efforts to end it quickly in socially legitimate ways, particularly, in early marriage. Without that commitment to early socially supported marriage, virginity talk is just nonsense, and completely out of touch with human nature. It is a formula that will produce unhappiness, and attract only those who seek unhappiness.

WHAT?! i'm sad for you, if this is what you think of virgins. i know PLENTY who are VERY HAPPY with their status in life and they aren't religious nuts, or even religious at all! they would much rather concentrate on their own lives, b/c, well, gosh darnit, there is MORE TO LIFE THAN HAVING SEX! OR EVEN BEING IN A RELATIONSHIP! virigins have lives like the rest of us. and i think they're alot more clearheaded then some of their non virgin counterparts. they don't have to think about whether or not they're at risk for an an STD or unplanned pregancy b/c of what they did with some person last night. they don't have to worry if that guy or gal thinks they're a slut for putting out when they did or uptight b/c they didn't put out soon enough. they don't have to worry about rumors that can spread around b/c they were seen with someone somewhere acting as if they were doing something that they had no business doing. they don't have to worry if mommy or daddy will be disappointed in them for having sex or getting pregant b/c of the expectations they have for them. they DO have to worry about passing class, getting a job and being on time for work every day, paying their bills, etc. it's a pretty carefree exsistance. and to only be "saving themselves for marriage" is STOOPID! no matter when or where or with whom they lose their virginity, there's a pretty good chance that when the time comes, they'll have a better relationship with the person b/c they weren't so caught up in keeping up with the status quo of NOT being a virgin. they were more concerned about how the relationship will benefit them from all corners and how they can contribut to it. i think society would be better off if we weren't all caught up in having sex all the time. at least then maybe, just maybe we'd be better able to think things through and a be a bit more clearheaded about it. we all know what happens to guys who think with their penis and women who think that spreading their legs will benefit them with something far greater than an orgasm. yeah, those virigins are on to something. the rest of us just need to catch up. :)

Hmmm. You don't seem to have read my post very carefully. Anyway, what I think of virginity is that it is reasonable at a young age... increasingly a distortion of the human personality as time goes on. I acknowledge that individual exceptions may exist, but in the main, I think the distortion and loss of humanity is real. I believe that for the vast majority of people an intimate relationship with another human being is deeply desired, and the only real path to God (insert your definition or understanding of "divinity" here.) I don't advocate waiting for marriage.... I got married at 33.... years too late.... no virgin was I... but I was ready at age 17, and so are most people so long as their marriages are supported by their parents and society. (If not? Well then you've got a mess.... lots of unhealthy sex... lots of unhealthy avoidance of sex.) Yeah, I'm radically pro-marriage. That's WHY I'm anti-prolonged virginity. Think of it that way

What about moderation in all things? There will be plenty of time for chaste living once you are married, after all.

Seriously, I made plenty of foolish choices when I was in college, but the one smart thing I did was, well, have sex in an exclusive relationship. Now that I'm older, with health problems and all kinds of other obligations, and I realize that I'll never have a period like that again. It's just like I'll never have another chance to be 11 years old and exploring the world around me for the first time. Certain times in life are special, and your late-teens / early twenties is one of them.

I can understand the impulse to take something to the limit, as I was a vegan for a time back in college. You get a sense of control when you abstain from something, and that can feel good. But with chastity, you might be, to put it bluntly, giving up the best chance you'll ever have to know what mind-blowing sex is all about. You can always go back on carbos, caffeine, or red meat...you can't always get back to Paris.

Jews in particular are prone to the notion that their religion is "wise" ....in a worldly way.

It's just religious crap. Similar to some other religious crap, different from yet some other religious crap--and in NO CASE is it based on clear, unbiased, individual thinking....

If people thought for themselves they would have neither too much or too little sex, too early or too late--they would do what's right FOR THEMSELVES.

if i wasn't married now, i'd wait to have paris. ppl are having "mind blowing sex" at all ages. waiting til you find someone to do it with, and you're in a place in life where the consequences of it aren't gonna seriously change (i hate to say "ruin") your plans for the rest of your life, is ideal. to say something is wrong with ppl who wait disgusts me. just b/c you took the first bus out, doesn't mean that EVERYONE has to do it, or even consider doing it.

I have a guestion.

If prostitution was legal would that change the virgin count or would it remain the same?

StevieN, Thanks for sharing. You sound kind of angry about something... maybe the Jews? But never mind. When people did what is right for themselves, what would that look like?

"just b/c you took the first bus out, doesn't mean that EVERYONE has to do it, or even consider doing it."

I agree with you that everyone doesn't need to consider doing it. However, are you opposed to people sharing their experiences and talking about why they made the choices they did?

See, the way I figure it is-- it is a personal choice. I don't think it is right to condemn people for making that choice however they see fit. I don't think it is healthy to be avoid sex out of fear. And I don't think it is healthy to engage in sex out of fear (for example, of losing the other person). But beyond that?

It is a deep personal choice an a deep personal responsibility....

Probably because Jewish law has a long (semi-secular) philosophical tradition which goes along with it.

I am not a Jew. I do respect Jewish tradition though in terms of thoughts on law, social relationships, etc. That is their tradition and I have mine.

RightNow:

A 24 year old virgin, with no certainty of marriage, is a distorted, unhappy and pathetic personality. The cult of virginity is reasonable if it is tightly coupled to a cult of early marriage, (and of course applied equally to men and women.) The cult of virginity is sick if it is decoupled from early marriage, and results in twisted distorted personalities, in people who lie to themselves, in people who deny themselves the normal autoerotic pleasures, and in people who redefine "virginity" a bit too creatively, and on and on.

NOT UNIVERSALLY TRUE. I'm in my mid-thirties, still a virgin, and I'm not twisted or distorted, nor have I redefined it in any type of creative way. I don't hate men - I have a lot of male friends, both among my professional colleagues and otherwise, and yes I do notice when an attractive man walks by. I just choose not to do anything about it. I'm a happy, busy person who is living my life as I see fit, and if someone thinks that's weird or demented, well, we each have a right to an opinion. It's a free country, after all.

You are misrepresenting my comment. I never said that "Something is wrong with ppl who wait". I said that having sex in my early twenties (I waited until then, and did not take "the first bus out" by any means) is one decision I made at that age that I have absolutely no regrets about. Other people say that about their decision to be chaste, and that's fine with me. In my case, I doubly glad I had sex back then because it's not something I'm able to do now. And I'm also glad I didn't marry the person I had sex with, because we would not have made good life partners, something I didn't know going into that relationship.

But if chastity is your thing, by all means be chaste. I'm glad we live in a society where these kinds of choices are possble.

The merits of the argument I advanced at the outset should be completely independent of your opinion of Jews or Judaism. However, because Christianity (and American Christian culture) has long equated virginity with holiness, while Judaism equates marriage with holiness, obviously there is going to be some cultural baggage that people bring to that discussion. Nothing in this argument requires reference to scripture or to religious belief however. The question is simply (more or less), what is the relationship between sex and abstinence and the well lived life? To those who say "wait until marriage" I have said... "don't let those marriages wait too long." I've advanced the idea that the distortions of the human personality that result from waiting are roughly as bad as the balance of good and bad that comes from not waiting to marriage... and that the best way to avoid both of those problems is to marry early. That is the cultural strategy followed by many groups... Hassidic Jews, but also Amish folk and many others. Curious that the more educated people get, the further they get from that strategy, forcing themselves into the undesirable situation of either (1) prolonged virginity or (2) multiple partners with attendant risk to the body and soul. Sure early marriage can be bad too... but in traditional societies those dangers are mitigated by social support.

If one cannot determine what we commonly value, we will come to different conclusions.

BTW, I generally agree with your position as a Norse Pagan.

EngineerGirl, I can believe that what you say applies to some people in your position... I am skeptical that it would apply to most people who would say that to me.

I would suspect that many people who might say what you say have adjusted themselves to their situation, accustomed themselves to tradeoffs that they might not have made in other circumstances, and so on. I would apply the notion of conditional or circumstantial happiness.... "given X and Y and Z, I am happy."

I'm quite willing to believe you were happy. I'm less certain that your current position is one you would have chosen "a priori" in the Rawlsian philosophical sense... prior to knowing what actual position you would inhabit in the world.

It is quite possible that you are one of the people for whom what you say is really true, even without conditions. I don't have a certain knowledge that applies to every person on the planet.

Nonetheless I think the broad generalities that I have described (far too broad) apply to the general human condition.