Dear Prudence

Style Guidelines

rundeep — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 17:07:31 GMT

Are usually imposed via a Dress Code containing a lot of nots: no capris, jeans, open-toed shoes, etc. My suspicion is that this young lady isn't dressing in violation of the Code, just not to maximize her potential. I do think it's rude to talk about how a kid like this is dressed at work, but I ask each of you to examine whether you've ever snarked on someone's wardrobe. I have, and it wasn't right then either.

But there are 2 lessons to learn here: 1) it's rude to discuss people like this, as well as catty and 2) people do in fact take note of how women dress, whether or not that's fair. So definitely dress better (and though cost is always an issue, you can shop used goods of high quality, or go to Ross' or Loehmann's and buy a piece at at time). Once you are dressed well enough to get another job, get it. And remember how you felt when a 20-something comes in with stirrup pants and a toe ring.

Re: No Style Protegee

lottapaws — Sat, 23 Jun 2007 20:12:19 GMT

To the poster saying the young grad shouldn't buy into some "old school notion of that it takes", you must be fairly young. When you are starting out on the bottom rung, you are a fool if you do not learn from those at the top. When you run your own business then you can make the rules. But when you are starting out and trying to "make it" in the corporate world, you'd better use your head and not your ego. Your work is not the only reason you are hired. Your professionalism, the image you portray, the work ethic you bring, your ATTITUDE and willingness to learn and to adapt to the atmosphere of the business, all these and more are characteristics upon which an employer makes hiring decisions--and firing decisions. When you run a business, all facets need work together, need to compliment each other, and a defiant attitude in an employee is not always a positive attribute.

Re: No Style Protegee

PollyEsther — Sat, 23 Jun 2007 05:29:22 GMT

Your Ex sounds like a really smart girl who knows a lot about economics. Why is she your Ex?

Re: No Style Protegee

Borsia — Sat, 23 Jun 2007 05:11:32 GMT

My Ex found a solution to this problem. She started checking out thrift stores like Salvation Army or Goodwill and found out that along with the other donated items there are scores of designer label items that are store over runs and discontinued lines. She is an VP assistant and has worked for big corporations like Cannon, Mattel and evereyone in her offices assumed that she paid hundreds of dollars just like they did. The truth is that she bought her top name clothes for $20 for an entire outfit.

It is best to visit the stores near affluent neighborhoods.

Re: No Style Protegee

PollyEsther — Sat, 23 Jun 2007 05:11:19 GMT

Well, there are two sides here: the two executives probably are mean, catty, and still in the junior high mind-set. What they are doing to her could possibly be a pattern, ie, all the other workers are men(?) Maybe what the women don't realize is that they are: jealous of younger women and subconsciously make these immature comments and probably do other things in an attempt to get rid of them.

The second thing is that the young woman should take stock of how she really dresses. Is she still stuck in the college casual sloppy way of dressing? One of the other LW mentioned that some stores have that teenage cool look and aren't really a quality product.When jobs were plentiful, maybe new hires could get away with looking like they were still in high school. Maybe she should buy a few chosen things, that don't have to be expensive, but would look like she expects to move up in the company instead of being the stock clerk forever. Especially if she is thinking of getting another job.

Perhaps she should stay there long enough to amass three or four more professional-looking outfits that could also be mixed and matched. Then she could look for another job without the catty bosses. I do think that she has a toxic work environment and she would probably be happier somewhere else.

Re: No Style Protegee

Adviceguru — Sat, 23 Jun 2007 04:52:29 GMT

Dear No Style,

Now is the big chance to do yourself some good. The smartest and most obvious thing to do is go to your desk and make out a list of what you do and and how well you do it. Add to the list the little over and above and beyond items that you have done. Then remember everything they said and write that down, you want a reference that is immediate and without hesitation, then you march into that office with those two women and ask for a raise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If they even start to balk against your list, call them on every thing they said about you, make them eat it. Tell them you will absolutely need the funds to come up to their standard. Make it known that you will be compensated and you have been discreminated against for further opportunity, because who else have they been talking to...

Re: No Style Protegee

Wuddly313 — Sat, 23 Jun 2007 01:57:39 GMT

The advice Prudence gave to this young woman was wrong.

Prudence did not comment (nor did some of the postings here) on the fact that the men in the office might be wearing the same things every day (think about it -- if the guy is wearing khakis every day, somehow that's okay. I've had men tell me they own 3-4 pairs of work pants -- that's it! Khahi, black, navy and dark brown).

The comments of these two women executives are legally actionable, esp. if they are her direct supervisors or in hierarchial line with her direct supervisors.

If the writer is in-line with the company's dress code, these woman have no reason to comment. And for many young workers, esp. in a small company, esp. at a starting salary, a "10-day rotation" is pretty good!

The best advice Prudence could and should have given was that any job that gives you that kind of stress that it keeps you up at night -- esp. when execs are judging you on your wardrobe, and judging you unfairly against male colleagues -- well then, it is worth going after a new job. No matter how the writer "changes" her wardrobe, she will never feel comfortable with these women. It is a small company and it is her first job out of college, she should move on before she gets an ulcer over something not at all related to her abilities and loses confidence in herself.

If these women are THAT catty that they are paying that much attention to her wardrobe, then how business-savvy are they really???

When looking for a new job, if her boss asks about time off or such, she should say that she heard the two executives making unflattering comments about her and she simply doesn't feel comfortable OR taken seriously anymore. And she should Fib a little and say that she and SOME OTHER COLLEAGUES overheard the women making comments. The 2 catty woman might deny saying hte comments if they think only the writer heard them -- however if they believe the comments were heard by several people, they will probaly give her no flack about taking time off looking for another job -- AND the writer should ask for one hell of a recommendation be given to her new employer!!!

(Can you tell I was in a sort of simillar situaiton before!)

Re: No Style Protegee

eiruduais — Sat, 23 Jun 2007 01:42:56 GMT

Well said Oona. I didn't get impression the execs were commenting that she was poorly dressed for the work environment (ie., flip-flops or jeans); they were making fun of the brands and stores where she shops as well as how much clothing she has. This is pathetic and malicious behavior left over from high school and shouldn't be encouraged by suggesting the young lady spend her salary on something as pointless as designer brands. I'm sorry, but it's that kind of thinking that has far too many Americans up to their eyeballs in debt. And it's like telling the kid being bullied at school to fix him/herself. It's the bullies (in this case, those execs) that have the problem and who should change. It's also one of the ways that supposedly "strong" women hold other women down. Buy what's appropriate and classic for the office. If "Burberry" and "Ann Taylor" don't like it, they can kiss your "Target."

Re: No Style Protegee

oona — Sat, 23 Jun 2007 00:47:11 GMT

Okay Ladies. Let's get real. The fact is that by advising this young woman to change who she is to fit into corporate america is totally and completely ridiculous. Some of you are asking her to buy into some old school notion of what it takes to be successful at work. Stop the "it's not who you are it's what you wear" b.s. It's what you DO that matters.

That these two female execs don't see that...well...let's just say they aren't role models and leave it at that. And Prudie, shame on you for telling her she needs to change.

Dear No - there are other women execs out there who would never, ever think the way these women do. Don't let them get you down. They do not represent all of us. I also wouldn't approach them. Not worth it. Look to yourself and ask who you want to be, how you want to show up and do that confidently. And if they only want women to look another way, go find a place where you can do what you love and be who you are.

Re: No Style Protegee

amanda — Fri, 22 Jun 2007 22:43:28 GMT

Wait a couple of wks, then compliment one of the women on their outfit. Sigh and say something like " you look fabulous today, I wish my salary permitted me to buy beautiful clothing like yours". "When I can afford it, I hope I can develop a style sense as chic as yours. "Do you happen to know where I could buy a few really good pieces occasionally, once I have saved enough?"

Re: No Style Protegee

haiku_rd — Fri, 22 Jun 2007 21:18:09 GMT

You are too easy on the young woman. When I got my first job, I tried to dress professionally for work so that we would be taken seriously. Now it the idea is to dress to appear cute, even on the job. Many of the early 20's-somethings in my office walk in in clothes from Banana Republic or Zara that are not only cheaply made (although not cheap) and very poorly fitted but often (to the eyes of someone 15 years older) just not professional. They wear flip-flops to work. They wear pants so low flesh is exposed when they sit down. They wear white bras which show under their clothing and generally don't care if the bra straps are visible. They wear tops that are so tight you can see the flesh between the buttons when they sit down. To me, this spells "badly dressed." There seems to be the idea that you should be able to wear whatever you want to the office and a total obliviousness to the idea that they might be conveying a lack of seriousness, and that dressing "professionally" will make you look older. One coworker couldn't understand why an older colleague made a dismissive remark about her wearing jeans on not casual day because her jeans looked so much nicer than some of the frumpy slacks outfits her older colleagues wear. Another 25 year old elicited gasps from a group at happy hour because she had a friend who was told she shouldn't wear open-toed shoes at work, and how wrong this was for her employer to impose this standard.

Young people, your bosses are probably 10 or more years older than you. Look at what they're wearing and let that set the tone. Business casual does not mean campus chic. It doesn't take that much money to buy some decent and professional clothes and it isn't the worst thing in the world for people in the office to treat you like you're older rather than younger than you are.

Re: No Style Protegee

myopinion — Fri, 22 Jun 2007 19:57:07 GMT

For Protege,

I really feel for her with this one. I have been in similar situations. My advice for her is if that she is comfortable with what she is wearing, then dont worry about what others say. Clothes are very expensive! If she does want to dress up her wardrobe with out emptying her poketbook, go to consignment shops. They have name brand clothes for a fraction of the cost, and if she gets tired of something she can consign it, meaning that she will get money for her clothes. (no one but her has to know where her clothes came from). In no time at all she will be making her (bosses) look at their own wardrobe!

My opinion

Re: I agree

PRINATL — Fri, 22 Jun 2007 19:47:08 GMT

She was asking for advice. Prudence gave her the most prudent one. Enhance yourself to your own betterment and forget the morons you work with.

Re: I agree

jasonk — Fri, 22 Jun 2007 19:30:45 GMT

If those two mean girls had been men, I'm sure Prudie wouldn't be talking about what a favor they were doing No-Style Protégée. Prudie's advice is off base.

I agree

its yggy — Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:50:00 GMT

I think those two would pick on her regardless of what she wore. But as others on this board have pointed out, that is a part of corporate culture. So it really is a lesson of sorts, just not specifically one about clothes.

The LW will encounter others like them in her work life. And she could very easily become one of them one day.