Dear Prudence

"chiding the girl" for her parents' values

IncogNeato — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:49:20 GMT

I don't think it's so much complaining about the girl's parents, and pointing out that if she were following HER parents' rules, it wouldn't be an issue.

If I knew my kids, while still living in my home as dependents, were encourages to have sex in their SO's parents' house, I'd be livid. I think most people would. I understand why some people would prefer the kids to get it at home, but I don't have to agree with them.

Re: you know what they say about assumptions

eseilenna76 — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 17:49:57 GMT

Mcme, just to touch on your seat-belt analogy... you say you should make sure your kid's car has seatbelts, and you encourage them to use them. You don't, as you said, buckle the seatbelt for them.

I would like to point out that she is making sure the condoms are available, and probably has told him they he should use them. I seriously doubt she pops in before running and errand to put the condom on for him. Because ewww.

So I would say that she's pretty much doing exactly as your analogy said she should.

those are even more assumptions.

Isonomist — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 17:19:02 GMT

I'd love to hear the LW's take on what you just wrote! I doubt it'd be the chorus from that Britney Spears song.

Re: you know what they say about assumptions

Dolph — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:51:15 GMT

Putting condoms in the bathroom isn't the best place.

Heat damages them. Bathrooms get quite warm and muggy.

Condoms belong in the nightstand.

Mom's putting them away, kind of like she does with his socks.

Or at least the girlfriend Thinks mom puts them there.

Re: you know what they say about assumptions

mcme — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:34:02 GMT

Exactly, she should talk to her boyfriend and she can't ask her own parents what to do, so she did ask another adult, which is the right thing to do. I can remember the fear of losing a relationship for vocalizing a differing opinion at that age, even a friendship, and sometimes a teenager needs a little reminding that there is another way to manage something than turning to an authority. Turning to an anonymous authority for help and then being called ungrateful and chided for being childish isn't going to help. I have seen teenagers and late adolescents learn from adults. I don't think it's impossible to reach them.

Teenagers are not adults, as has been made clear over and over again in all these responses, and they are also not children, which bothers some people to no end. They don't control their bodies, their lives, their living situations, their home lives, as has been made clear as well, and yet they are too old to be controlled by parents. It's a very difficult position to be in, especially when you are handling a situation your parents wouldn't approve of. Not everyone is as enlightened as a parent who provides condoms, and that doesn't mean a teenager is wrong for having sex anyway. It's an unfair expectation to think that every 18 year old can approach an authority figure in a spirit of negotiation. If she needs to be reminded to do so, that's one thing, but, again, that's the role of the adult

What's the worst thing that could happen if she approached her boyfriend's mom about this? She says that this is an issue between her son and his girlfriend and she should talk to him about it? She takes the condoms away? She doesn't leave when they have sex? All of these are consequences of an not as mature as it could be decision not disasters.

And it bothers me to no end that this young woman is being chided for having parents who wouldn't approve. She didn't choose her parents, just as your child didn't choose you, and maybe she's not so lucky. That's not her fault! It makes it harder to manage challenging situations when your parents aren't open and accessible.

Re: you know what they say about assumptions

Isonomist — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 16:11:41 GMT

Thanks for the recognition. But my point on legal issues, which I guess I'm countersinking into the ground now, is that the mother is legally responsible for what goes on in her home even if the "kid" is 75. And she has the right to determine what does and doesn't go on under her roof, whatever the son's age, and even if it's an unrelated person. This can get very, very important when you're a parent, and very, very expensive. Or worse, very, very tragic. There are parents here in NY who are facing jail time for letting their high school senior son throw a party with alcohol and strippers. They were home the whole time.

My complaint about this girl is not that she wants to set boundaries regarding her sex life but that she's not even talking to the guy she's fucking about those boundaries. If she thought of him as an adult, she wouldn't be asking Prudie about talking to his MOTHER about it. I mean, dear God, talk about going over his head to the boss.

What she says is: "Is it too presumptuous to ask that the woman who provides me with valuable information and a house to have sex in butt out?" And my response is, yes it is.

She says "I feel like my boyfriend and his mother are bonding over our sex life. Although I doubt their conversations ever get graphic, I don't want my intimate experiences to be dinner conversation. I recently found out that his mother usually plans to run errands when she knows we'll be having sex in his room. This means that he must inform her ahead of time when he plans to have sex, right?" but if she'd asked him she wouldn't be asking Dear Prudie, she'd know the answers. Never once does she say "he says" or "he knows" -- No, this girl is making it a conflict between the mother and herself, instead of doing the adult thing and discussing it with her BF. Betcha if she did, she'd never have to write Prudie.

I've taught at the college level too, btw, and my experience is that you can't tell them anything. I dont' think this mom is doing nearly as much interfering in the BF's life as the girl thinks she is, and I dont' think that this girl is setting appropriate sexual boundaries if she's unable to communicate with her partner and reach a satisfactory compromise or conclusion, but instead contemplates attacking the mother ("butt out" isn't exactly the spirit of good negotiating). If she wants the mom to be less involved, she can get a hotel or go fuck in her own room. Wonder what her parents would say about that (I think I can guess by the fact that she doesn't go there at all to have sex).

Re: you know what they say about assumptions

mcme — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 14:11:27 GMT

Congratulations on raising such a child. And if the fact that anything he does is your legal responsibility until he is 18 weighs on you so greatly, you'll be happy to learn that both of these kids are over 18! Phew.

I don't know everyone gets so hung up on the legalities here. Obviously, you're legally responsible for your kids until you're not. And most people are long after as well.

I teach college so I've seen plenty of kids come from wonderful loving situations to which their every need was attended and not know what in the bloody hell to do on their own. I'd advocate that there's a nice compromise for the situation. Just don't put the freaking condoms in the nightstand. Have the big sex talk with the kid and then indiscreetly place condoms in the medicine cabinet. Don't let the kids know you know their every move. Have some adult discretion. This mother sounds like a perfecly lovely woman (who is, yes, trying to show ownership over her home and surroundings and her kid) who doesn't know she is overstepping bounds and unaware that she is making anyone uncomfortable, partly due to the "mixed messages" being sent by the young woman in the situation. But the fact is, you teach a kid to drive and then you let them drive. Certainly, you don't buckle the seatbelt for your kids every time and then adjust the seat after pulling the car up into the exact place where the kid is standing.

Teenagers need to know they are trusted and this is not an atmosphere of trust. Putting condoms in a nightstand drawer does not indicate that the mom has faith in either of these teenagers to do the right thing. Teach a man to fish, blah, blah, cliche.

I just don't think it's appropriate to call this girl ungrateful for wanting to set boundaries about her sex life and her body with her boyfriend's mom. That's one thing teenagers really need to be taught, and from my experience with college students, it's the major one not being taught at home.

you know what they say about assumptions

Isonomist — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:49:32 GMT

You've never met my son or me. My "little boy" is 17, but he's already running an outdoor games project with mostly college age attendees (for the last 8 months in fact), he's got a full scholarship for a masters in education with a minor in chemistry, he travels all over New York City via subway day and night, on his own, doesn't do drugs or drink, has tons of friends, has flown all over the country by himself both to visit friends and family, and to attend debate tournaments, and all this besides a rather limiting cardiovascular problem, and the recent deaths of his brother and his dad. So my kid is growing up just fine, IMO. Because he is so responsible, he has very few rules at my house, but he knows he has to follow my house rules and the house rules wherever he's visiting, as long as he's under their roof, and he knows his responsibilities are there for a reason.

I'm curious what the heck you think my issues are. Are you advocating letting 17 year olds be left to their own devices sexually or otherwise without parental guidance? That's called neglect. Look it up. Are you saying I try to control my kid's relationship with his girlfriend? Evidence please? Did I even say he had a girlfriend? No. Are you saying I try to control his behavior in my house? Hell yes. Any sane person would, parent or no. Why? Because the owner/lessor is legally responsible for what happens in their apartment, home, house, shack or trailer. And as a parent, it's up to me whether anyone goes into a room in my home and how they behave when there. I don't restrict my son's time at friends' houses, but he has responsibilities as long as he's under my roof. And if he does something foolish at someone else's house, he is responsible for the consequences.

The fact you don't seem to realize here, is that anything he does is my legal responsibility until he is 18, and anything he does on my property is, whenever he's there. So that puts me in the position of having to, by law, control his behavior and teach him to be responsible. The mom in the letter may be going a little overboard, but she is absolutely right to make sure that nothing bad happens to her son or girlfriend on her watch. She's hardly stopping her son from growing up. And if he doesn't like it, I'm sure she and he would have a talk about restructuring the situation. But the point is: it's HER relationship with her son, and the gf doesn't even mention his opinion. That's the key here: all she cares about here is herself. Not one word about what he wants or feels.

Do you seriously think anyone else but the owner of the home has the right to dictate what goes on in the home? She and her son have made an arrangement they both agree on, but plenty of parents would not tolerate their son or daughter having premarital sex in their home, and it doesn't stunt their kid's growth to have parents with those values.

ok, ew.

Isonomist — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:26:06 GMT

I've been writing partly tongue in cheek here (don't really think mom should be restocking the condom supply, or cleaning his room for him, for example), but ew. Ew.

Talk about projecting!

IncogNeato — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 10:36:58 GMT

Just because a mother isn't ready to become a grandmother through the actions of her barely-graduated son doesn't mean she's "trying to show SHE is the one who hold all the cards with the boy". Can't you accept the simple face value?

His mother "a public-health educator at a local university". She has seen the effects of careless sex ... broken lives, broken bodies, broken relationships. She is trying to protect her son and his girlfriend from this consequence.

I make my (adult) kids wear seatbelts in my car. I have since they were infants in car seats. Does that I am trying to control them, and show them who is in charge? I don't think so. I don't let anyone ride in my car without one, and the extremely rare exception must sit (by law) in the back seat.

Gee, I'm such a controlling psycho!

Incidentally, because I insisted my kids & their friends wore seatbelts growing up, my kids won't ride in a vehicle without one. Perhaps training the boy now to wear a raincoat will protect him when Mom is out of the picture.

Re: I am your boyfriend's Mom, you ingrate.

mcme — Fri, 08 Jun 2007 09:40:04 GMT

Wow, an 18 year old young woman is trying to have an independent relationship with her boyfriend (or come between dear old mom and son)? That's a shocker! Wait, no, it's adolescence.

Sadly, in educating your little boy about how to avoid such control freaks trying to destroy his relationship with his loving and caring mother, you're destroying his ability to have relationships at all. Kids are supposed to grow away from their parents. It's what we call growing up.

Don't project your issues onto the letter writer, who is looking for adult advice. If you're trying to control your kid's contact with his girlfriend, that's your issue, not this mother's.

By involving herself in her son's sex life, the mom in this situation is desperately trying to hold onto her kid, in an entirely inappropriate manner. She is trying to show SHE is the one who hold all the cards with the boy, not the girlfriend. Apparently, some of you parents see that as just fine simply because they are not living away from home. It's not. Let your kids grow up. Or I fear what is to come.

Re: Yeah, I can still remember

eseilenna76 — Thu, 07 Jun 2007 21:38:27 GMT

Hurray for our parents! :)

Yeah, I can still remember

Isonomist — Thu, 07 Jun 2007 21:02:32 GMT

At 16, saying no to my bf because the stupid thing had been in his wallet for too long. I already knew heat was bad for them. :)

Re: I am your boyfriend's Mom, you ingrate.

eseilenna76 — Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:15:41 GMT

Wow, awful lot of assumptions there. So, because she's aware her 18 (or darn close to 18) year old son has sex, and makes sure there are condoms available so he doesn't do something stupid and life-changing in the heat of the moment, you're assuming she's someone who would also encourage illegal underage drinking and throw him and his friends a party where they could drink? I think that's reaching quite a bit. I agree good boundaries make good parents, and frankly I didn't see anything wrong with hers.

My parents did not in any way encourage me to have sex or drink as a teen, but they made it clear to me that if the time came when I needed birth control pills or condoms, or really wanted to try some beer or wine (or anything else), I should feel comfortable coming to them first for whatever I felt I needed to try. As a result, I was one of the few kids in my graduating class without either a kid or a drinking or drug problem. I knew if I ever really wanted to try something, my parents would support me - so I didn't have the temptation to go out and do anything stupid. Your job as a parent is to educate and guide your child and prepare them for the real world - not protect them from it to the extent that without you around they don't know how to make good choices for themselves.

Re: I am your boyfriend's Mom, you ingrate.

Madd_Libby — Thu, 07 Jun 2007 19:51:55 GMT

As always, well articulated reply, Iso. =-D