XX Factor

Re: Trampling the Flag IS INAPPROPRIATE

Adrasteia — Sun, 26 Oct 2008 20:05:54 GMT

I saw a flag for sale at the Marine Veterans fund raiser that had a picture of the NY skyline superimposed over the stars and patriotic words over the stipes. It looked like desecration to me.

Re: Trampling the Flag IS INAPPROPRIATE

endorendil — Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:13:04 GMT

Oy ve. Who here actually knows the flag code?

Did you know the flag cannot be used in advertising? Take all those political ads of the air. Did you know you're not allowed to put it on a lapel pin (or, for that matter, any kind of apparel)? Did you see the picture of Palin draped in a flag? That's desecration according to the flag code - you can't wear it, and you're not allowed to let it touch the ground (and it did),

Personally, I disagree with much of the flag code. For instance, I don't think wearing a 9/11 memorial jacket with the flag on it is a desecration of it. I think that the flag code applies pretty much only to actual, normal-sized flags intended to be flown as a national identifier or as a symbol of personal patriotic pride. That includes all those flags that people put up on their houses and in their yards. So remember, all you who fly that proud banner at home: take it in every night (or illuminate it if you leave it up after dark), salute it properly (every time) and don't display it in foul weather. Personally, I believe that there's nothing more offensive (in terms of flag abuse) than putting up a flag casually - never removing it, never cleaning it and never honoring it properly. It shows real disrespect.

And please, don't, I repeat, don't salute the flag the way it was described in the flag code.

Re: Intent.

Adrasteia — Sat, 25 Oct 2008 19:37:26 GMT

You're right, Woolley. Don't ever let those who would ignore a human being and the rights of human beings to protect a piece of material back you down.

Intent.

Woolley — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:30:41 GMT

The obsession with symbols is a cancer upon our nation and the world. It is what Christians fought against in the early days. It is just a piece of cloth. No one, anywhere, can ever take away from anyone else what America means as an idea and an ideal. Worrying about accidental misuse of a symbol is a waste of time, money and energy. If you want to protest something real, take a look at what we have done to our Constitution in these last 8 years.

Re: Trampling the Flag and habeous corpus

Glaucon — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:21:29 GMT

Do American Constitutional Rights apply to the world? Does have a Father have a constitutional right to his children? Do we have a constitutional guarantee that the Social Security Funds will be held in Trust and used for Retirement Income to Seniors?

Flag does not touch the ground

-Glaucon

Re: Trampling the Flag

Glaucon — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:17:42 GMT

Techinically Dave as a Cub Scout "how to treat the Flag" was in the books you were supposed to read metaphorically perhaps.

Re: Intent is more important than respect?

Glaucon — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:42:54 GMT

Wooley, Telly Savolas you are not...baby...

Our American Flag is an Icon, it represents our nation and our people, while some baby skip national pride and ownership others like Japan, China, Venezula et al are ready to take ownership of our lunch...

...perhaps it is too much to hope that potential elected leaders would be aware of, gosh, laws that are on the books, or long standing traditions that some of us have learned...

...of course, maybe there are some of us who do not like team participation, and to think they tore up parts of a ball field to remove a cursed jersey...

...this is the land of the free, the brave and united (specifc phrase and logic) we stand for our mutual Prosperity and for that of our posterity...

...America is not an object to be used...it is a Team to join...sooner we all learn that...sooner we can take back our lunch...

Truly,

Glaucon

Re: Trampling the Flag

Glaucon — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:32:48 GMT

We retire American Flags that are in disrepair, without regard to their size, let alone the inappropriate photo op...

...not sure but perhaps you have missed the football field size flags that are presented at Football Games, NASCAR events, other sports venues...you know...where nobody lets any part touch the ground...

-Glaucon

Re: Trampling the Flag IS INAPPROPRIATE

Glaucon — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:43:12 GMT

Good morning! We, as Americans are a Nation and a People (the people) we are a team. We actually have some fine long standing traditions. Very truly, as I have written before, Americans urgently need to think of all of us as a team, albeit no truer than when I wrote that here in 2000 or 1995, I would hope it is now abudantly clear.

One of our long standing traditions is codified in the "Flag Code". As has been written here, every Boy Scout, Tiger Scout, Cub Scout, Webelos Scout, Eagle Scout, Explorer Scout, Venturing Scout as well as many active members of the military, veterans of the armed services, law enforcement members and members of the Fire Service (fireman or fire fighters) are aware of our traditions relative to our American Flag.

An American Flag in disrepair, no longer appropriate for display, is retired in reverent ceremony.

Displaying the Flag also has a caveat or two: placed on the audiences left (when viewed), not en masse, higher than all others in time of war.

truly, in 2000, I was writing here that if we can not act as a team: foreign folks would be eating our lunch, whether Venezeula, China, India, Arabia: good Lord it just does not matter, not only are foreigners eating our lunch, foreign governments are holding our personal debt.

Whether this applies to you or someone you know, there are people here in America, breathing in toxic levels of rectal gas, we Do need to restore our traditions, pass them on to our youth, restore our national pride and determiniation...

...and follow our Flag to our mutual prosperity of us and our posterity.

Truly,

Glaucon

Intent is more important.

Woolley — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:09:37 GMT

its just a piece of cloth baby, thats all it is. What it stands for is us. I can handle a few people standing on a piece of cloth. I object though to a rejection of what it means to be free. We are free. We are not cerfs to a crown. Get over your obsession with images and symbols.

Re: Trampling the Flag

Adrasteia — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 22:33:38 GMT

Now where did I say people don't serve to get benefits? I think most have that a least in the backs of their mind.

I said I never met one who joined to protect a flag.

If you deployed, were you ever thinking you would throw yourself in front of a flag to protect it? Would have protected your fellow soldiers? Then you know what I mean.

I don't know how long you served but I served an entire career. At some point you figure out the bigger picture. That you may serve for the pay but your charter is to uphold the Constitution. The officer or enlistment oaths don't mention a flag anywhere.

Yes, I worked with a guy who joined to gain citizenship too. He also was difficult to understand. But when it comes down to having to protect something, it's either a person or your own ass, probably not a flag getting dirty.

I suggest Lubbesuh should drive around her own town and see how many dirty and tattered flags are flying and then engage those people before she criticises some kids playing on a flag as desecration.

Re: Trampling the Flag

icemilkcoffee — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 22:08:24 GMT

Adrasteia:

Children should be taught to respect PEOPLE and to defend the CONSTITUTION. After that, respect for the symbolic properties of the flag are automatic.

.... I never knew one single person who served to protect the flag. They served to protect you.

Let's not get carried away here. I was in the US Army too. Some served for the GI Bill benefits. Some did it for vocational training. Some do it because their dads told them to. Some served because they were a bunch of losers with nothing else to do. One guy was in the army to get his green card (no joke- he couldn't even speak english- another soldier had to translate for him half the time) I didn't know one single person who served out of 'patriotic' reasons. And I knew a few who were there because they were basically psychopaths with guns and explosives and rambo obsessions.

Re: Trampling the Flag

Adrasteia — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:10:52 GMT

Sorry about that, SH. I was a volunteer. I served to uphold the Constitution of the US. Flags make me feel all gooey and patriotic but I wouldn't die for one.

Re: Trampling the Flag

Bondsman — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:13:08 GMT

BortimusPrime:
I think the irony here is that the same people who can't stand to see an American flag desecrated probably don't understand why Muslims could get pissed off at a drawing of Mohammed with a bomb for a turban.

Another irony is that you don't notice the difference between people calmly objecting to something and someone blowing up a building or murdering someone to show their displeasure.

Re: Trampling the Flag

SUPERHEATED — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:50:30 GMT

i didnt serve to protect ANYBODY at home, i did it because i was forced to and to protect the guy next to me....