XX Factor

Re: The real counterpoint to Weiss

TJA — Wed, 28 May 2008 22:58:57 GMT

"Myself, I've never had much interest in casual sex. My partner needs to appeal on many different levels, not just the physical, to be interesting."

Yeah, casual sex really loses it's appeal after a few decades.

Re: The real counterpoint to Weiss

thelyamhound — Wed, 28 May 2008 20:37:33 GMT

Do you struggle mightily, but rest secure in your strength to overcome temptation? Or do you wallow in despair, like Weiss, knowing that an affair is inevitable, and rail against the velvet bars of your self-elected prison?

More like the former than like the latter, definitely. I can't imagine why I would get or stay married if it were the latter. But there are struggles, of course, and compromises I have to constantly weigh in my mind; having sex with other women is the least of my worries.

Meanwhile, is your mother beautiful?

Well, of course. :) But not physically, no. I take your point--that it's POSSIBLE to experience physical beauty divorced from erotic impulse. And I'm not really convinced that either of us is right, since under most circumstances, these theories will remain (thankfully) untested. What I would say is that it's quite possible that one who did find one's mother--or cousin, or aunt (just to make it a little less . . . icky)--to be physically attractive might well be fielding a genuine erotic temptation, but refrains (easily or otherwise, depending on temperament, character, etc.) due to social pressures, self-discipline, etc.

OR . . . The chemical framework of the human animal provides natural revulsion to any would-be desire to possess immediate family erotically, thereby differentiating mother, in your example, from OTHER other women.

It's all theory, anyway, which is why I suggest that we ought be judged on action rather than volition.

Re: The real counterpoint to Weiss

Fitzpatrick — Wed, 28 May 2008 19:45:01 GMT

thelyamhound:

I'm being deliberately churlish, Fitz. I liked your top post, even if, like TJA, I have a somewhat less optimistic view than you do of the internal motivations of this beast we call human. And I've been married and faithful for nigh 12 years, so . . . well, something seems to be working, right?

Thanks for the response. Yes, something must be working. What is it? Do you struggle mightily, but rest secure in your strength to overcome temptation? Or do you wallow in despair, like Weiss, knowing that an affair is inevitable, and rail against the velvet bars of your self-elected prison?

Meanwhile, is your mother beautiful?

Finally, I make no claims to understand humans as a whole, except that I know that universal statements (like Weiss's) are nearly universally wrong.

Re: The real counterpoint to Weiss

thelyamhound — Wed, 28 May 2008 19:43:01 GMT

Imagine that this aspect were no longer there - she gives you permission, won't be hurt - would you then have sex with someone else?

Assuming that she's sincere, well, that'd be an open marriage. Given that, I'm inclined to say that if I and a prospective partner were willing, well, yeah, why not? I mean, we have to decide each case on its merits, but in principle, you can't tell someone the door is always open and then be surprised when they go outside.

But that's not the kind of marriage I have, not the kind I asked for, and certainly not the kind I'm gonna spring on my lovely wife after the fact.

Oh, I dunno.

thelyamhound — Wed, 28 May 2008 19:39:35 GMT

I agree with you, and with TJA, that temptation is very real, and, for most people, fraught with ongoing struggle. On the other hand, I don't think it's JUST lack of opportunity or fear of being caught that keeps me from acting on it. I have moral and ethical convictions that prevent me, as well, much in my marriage that I hold sacred. I suppose "limiting opportunities" is a reasonable enough approach, but between maintaining friendships and working onstage, I'm inevitably going to find myself in emotionally and erotically "charged" situations; how I ACT in those situations becomes a measure of my character.

Re: The real counterpoint to Weiss

thelyamhound — Wed, 28 May 2008 19:08:03 GMT

Ever see a good-looking man? Can you appreciate that a guy is good-looking, but not want to have sex with him?

Maybe. But as a happily married bisexual, I sort of doubt it. Can't speak for TJA on this.

For that matter, how about a beautiful horse?

I think all appreciation of beauty has an element of the erotic to it, and some element of possession (though which side is possessing and which possessed can vary). I can't help but think that some part of me, deep down, says, "What a beautiful sunset. I wonder how hard I can make it come?"

;^)

I'm being deliberately churlish, Fitz. I liked your top post, even if, like TJA, I have a somewhat less optimistic view than you do of the internal motivations of this beast we call human. And I've been married and faithful for nigh 12 years, so . . . well, something seems to be working, right?

Correction . . .

thelyamhound — Wed, 28 May 2008 19:01:50 GMT

Immoral from a Christian perspective. Not universally immoral.

To me, it's foolish to judge a man for his desires, even from a Christian perspective (which holds that we're all fallen, anyway). Better, I should think, to judge him by his actions, and by the degree to which he keeps his word.

Re: The real counterpoint to Weiss

Fitzpatrick — Wed, 28 May 2008 18:45:31 GMT

I understand your point that the fact you have to struggle makes fidelity meaningful. I certainly don't condemn you for the struggle. You seem to have a positive view of the situation, unlike Weiss, who thinks he's got handcuffs on his genitals and wishes he could break free.

Ever see a good-looking man? Can you appreciate that a guy is good-looking, but not want to have sex with him? For that matter, how about a beautiful horse?

Myself, I've never had much interest in casual sex. My partner needs to appeal on many different levels, not just the physical, to be interesting. An affair, to be worthwhile in any sense of the word, would mean developing a relationship with the other person. I enjoy forming relationships, i.e. meeting people, but to develop one that is intense and significant enough to want sex would be a lot of work & commitment.

I'm not claiming to be superhuman or holier-than-thou. I have no idea how many others might feel this way. But I don't think that the "constant struggle" model is universal.

Re: The real counterpoint to Weiss

the true conservative — Wed, 28 May 2008 18:09:45 GMT

[Of course it does! I have never seen a guy drive by in a cool car and NOT said to myself "I wish I had that car". I still can't wrap my head around what you are trying to say. That you like something but don't want it? Wanting something that you shouldn't have isn't wrong.]

It is not illegal, but it is immoral. It's called the 10'th commandment. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20:17

[If you have the strength to resist temptation then you are proving you love your wife. Admiting you want what you can't and shouldn't have doesn't mean you love her any less. In fact, it means you love her so much that you are willing to fight an internal battle to stay true to her. If you have no such temptation and don't fight that battle then you aren't really sacrificing much for her are you?]

Well, I'm not saying that I could not be tempted. I certainly could indulge in fantasies about having sex with other women. I'm saying I don't want to.

Re: The real counterpoint to Weiss

TJA — Wed, 28 May 2008 16:35:56 GMT

"Appreciating beauty does not have to mean, and should not mean, wanting something you should not have."

Of course it does! I have never seen a guy drive by in a cool car and NOT said to myself "I wish I had that car". I still can't wrap my head around what you are trying to say. That you like something but don't want it? Wanting something that you shouldn't have isn't wrong. If you have the strength to resist temptation then you are proving you love your wife. Admiting you want what you can't and shouldn't have doesn't mean you love her any less. In fact, it means you love her so much that you are willing to fight an internal battle to stay true to her. If you have no such temptation and don't fight that battle then you aren't really sacrificing much for her are you?

Re: The real counterpoint to Weiss

the true conservative — Wed, 28 May 2008 16:19:07 GMT

[This is the part I don't get Fitz. You appreciate beautiful women but they don't tempt you? That doesn't make sense to me. To see a great rear end and recognize it as such yet feel no urge to grab it? That's like saying you think hamburgers are delicious but have no interest in eating them. I don't buy it.]

Well, my wife is a bellydancer (ameteur) and when I go to her performances I certainly see plenty of very beautiful women putting on sensual performances. Appreciating beauty does not have to mean, and should not mean, wanting something you should not have.

I can appreciate another man's cool car without being tempted to steal it. I can appreciate art without wishing to buy every piece I see. And I can appreciate beauty in women without being tempted to cheat on my wife.

Why? Because I love her.

Re: The real counterpoint to Weiss

TJA — Wed, 28 May 2008 16:10:33 GMT

"But those things don't tempt me to have sex with those women. The vision of having sex with them does not fuel my fantasies. Any opportunity to do so would not be appealing. "

This is the part I don't get Fitz. You appreciate beautiful women but they don't tempt you? That doesn't make sense to me. To see a great rear end and recognize it as such yet feel no urge to grab it? That's like saying you think hamburgers are delicious but have no interest in eating them. I don't buy it.

"Why won't you cheat on your wife? Seriously, what drives that commitment - the public promise, the fear of losing her, desire not to hurt her? "

That is exactly it. I, like 99% of men in the world, struggle with the temptations and urges to pursue other women but we CHOOSE not to. We choose this because we have one woman in our lives that is more important than any other and we would never hurt her like that. In my mind it is better to acknowledge the struggle and celebrate the strength and character it takes to win that struggle than to deny it exists at all.

Re: The real counterpoint to Weiss

DelayedKarma — Wed, 28 May 2008 15:43:13 GMT

I felt kind of annoyed when I was reading the original post and I had to wonder why, because there is certainly nothing wrong with the sentiment... it is enviable. But then I realized that this was exactly the reason I was annoyed. It's like people who brag about being able to eat anything they want anytime and they never gain weight. I'm just jealous.

I've never acted on it, but it would nice to be rid of the impulse and desire for other women. It's a frusterating impulse and I sometimes have to wonder if it's only lack of opportunity and/or fear of being caught that keeps me from acting on it. It's not an especially pleasant thought, but I suspect it's that way for most men (and maybe women as well). The key is limiting opportunities.

Re: The real counterpoint to Weiss

Fitzpatrick — Wed, 28 May 2008 02:58:42 GMT

Thanks for your interest, TJA.

I like to choose my words carefully, especially in a long post, and most especially when I'm angling for a mention on the main page (ka-ching!) When I said I don't feel any temptation, that's precisely what I meant.

I didn't say that I feel no "attraction" to other women; in fact, I said that I do find other women attractive - superficially. Nice boobs, great ass, pretty smile, flirtatious glance: no, I'm not dead, any more than you are.

But those things don't tempt me to have sex with those women. The vision of having sex with them does not fuel my fantasies. Any opportunity to do so would not be appealing.

Why won't you cheat on your wife? Seriously, what drives that commitment - the public promise, the fear of losing her, desire not to hurt her? Imagine that this aspect were no longer there - she gives you permission, won't be hurt - would you then have sex with someone else?

Re: The real counterpoint to Weiss

TJA — Wed, 28 May 2008 00:32:42 GMT

You are better off Maxo. The unfortunate truth is that no man can keep up the full court press for long (flowers, poems, etc.) and eventually she would have had to settle for simple love and devotion....I doubt she would have liked that.