Jurisprudence

Re: Then you don't understand the issues at play

Eigenvector — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 22:42:49 GMT

What about that Latino - how does he fit into your argument?

As for points 2 and 3 - is there clear evidence that the city, county, or state contibuted to that coaching (if there was any that is). Is there evidence that the city, county, or state REFUSED to assist the non-white firefighters? Is there evidence that the non-white firefighters even asked for coaching or assistance?

If the city, county, or state had no part in assisting anyone, then your argument is moot. If they did have a part was that part available to anyone - if yes then your point is moot.

Then you don't understand the issues at play

degsme — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:07:20 GMT

Provence:

As I understand the facts of this case, the firefighters who took the tests were given a list of books to study for the test. They were also informed what specific chapters to study. What more could you ask for? How much hand-holding is required?

Then you don't understand the issues at play.

is there actually a correlation between these chapters and the ability to lead in firefighting situation? - Not Clear
Some of the "passing" white male firefighters received coaching from retired white male firefighters, no minorities did
White male candidates had gotten where they were with a lifetime of handholding

But thanks for playing

You Can Lead a Horse to Water. . .

Provence — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 19:10:39 GMT

As I understand the facts of this case, the firefighters who took the tests were given a list of books to study for the test. They were also informed what specific chapters to study. What more could you ask for? How much hand-holding is required?

I like what John McWhorter says in The New Republic:

"I sit with Shakespeare and he winces not," W.E.B. Du Bois wrote in 1903. A century later, the International Association of Professional Black Firefighters tells us, "Cognitive examinations have an adverse effect upon blacks and other minorities." Du Bois crowed, "Fifty years ago the ability of Negro students in any appreciable numbers to master a modern college course would have been difficult to prove," and proudly documents 2,500 black college graduates. Imagine Du Bois listening to a rep from the black firefighters' association now sneering that the promotion test merely measures "the ability to read and retain"--i.e. engage in higher-level thinking processes! O tempora, o mores.

This will not do: People like Du Bois did not dedicate their lives to paving the way for black people to be exempt from tests. Sure, the tests may not correlate perfectly with firefighters' duties. But which falls more into the spirit of black uplift that you could explain to a foreigner in less than three minutes: teaching black candidates how to show what they are made of despite obstacles, or banning a test of mental agility as inappropriate to impose on black candidates?