Human Nature

Re: Jewish Intelligence

Blood — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:32:20 GMT

"We'll agree to disagree, okay? You seem like a nice guy. And it must take you forever to write those posts."

I suspect Bob whipped them out in very little time. As someone who claims superior intellect, I would think you would understand that.

Re: Jewish Intelligence

Blood — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:27:00 GMT

I am sorry to hear that your daughter has heard things like that. As a Christian with Jewish blood, I can tell you that I have NEVER heard of anyone in my circles saying such a thing. Perhaps the people who say such are white supremacists or something. REAL Christians are beginning to truly embrace our spiritual Jewish heritage and honor our family tree.

Re: Jewish Intelligence

Blood — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:12 GMT

Lovely sentiments. Is it any wonder why evangelical Christians identify more with the Jews than Muslims?

Love wins, Saletan. Think about it.

Re: Jewish Intelligence

Blood — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:10:22 GMT

I'm pretty sure the bible (OT) forbade usury by the Jews to other Jews. It was OK to charge usury to non-Jews.

Re: Jewish Intelligence

Blood — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:06:43 GMT

Bob, Honey, don't you see the Hand of God in all this? How indeed DID Abraham's kids manage to survive with all this persecution? Intelligence cannot account for all the good luck(?) the Jews have seemed to acquired with this. Time and again, throughout the old testament, God said He would scatter the Jews;persecution enabled this. Time and again He said He would bless A's kids; intelligence enabled this. How could such an ancient civilization thrive without a homeland, keep its identity, and land in the top echelons of societies without the hand of a favoring God? And I write this as a Christian.

I just hope that the Jews look at the extremely small chance of their being where they are and attribute it to Him, worshipfully, and not to the fruit of His hand, worshipfully.

Re: Jewish Intelligence

Bob Brass — Sun, 04 Nov 2007 23:56:41 GMT

Mr. fsilber:

I hadn't really spent a lot of time on your comment, but now, having re-read it, believe you missed the entire point I was trying to make. You don't breed intelligence into a race, you breed, by virtue of the forces I mentioned in the initial and responsive posts, stupidity/lack of intelligence OUT of it! And that's precisely what Mr. Saletan was saying as well --- I believe, not wanting to put words into his posts, as it were.

brerlou

MorganLee — Sun, 04 Nov 2007 13:12:16 GMT

The late President Nkrumah of Sub-Saharan Ghana, for example tested out with an IQ of about 180!

Would you mind sharing your source of this information? Also, who administered the test and what test was used? I am very familiar with IQ tests, but cannot name any reputable test that can measure beyond 4 sigma and even then, the upper ranges are suspect.

Let me end with a few questions, to what extent do these tests measure synthetic skill sets as opposed to analytic?

Human cognitive abilities are ALL correlated. This fact causes a single g to always emerge from a factor analysis of tests of intelligence. The job of an IQ test is to probe various abilities enough to get a good reading of g. That's it.

Does the basic g, measured by these tests really exhaust the range of human mental ability? How would we know?

We know that the only thing that matters in any IQ test is its ability to measure g. This can be shown by factoring out all of the g loading and then examining the residuals for predictive validity. There is virtually none.

In terms of American blacks, it is nothing short of dishonesty for a researcher to ignore the fact that true freedom, especially in education, was only granted to blacks in the lifetimes of most Americans still alive today, but like everything else most people can’t distinguish between winning an argument for their side, and winning an argument for the Truth.

Why do you think that US Blacks are the point here? Blacks in countries where the governments are Black and the population is almost entirely Black have lower IQ scores than Blacks in the US. Blacks in Europe have the same mean IQ as US Blacks and that is predicted by the 25% European admixture found in both groups. If freedom requires so long to operate, how is it that Chinese have a higher mean IQ than Americans? What aspect of freedom causes Ashkenazi Jews to have a huge advantage (at the mean) over non-Jew Europeans? Let me suggest that you are trying to fabricate cause and effect without doing any basic research or thinking about the implications of your comments.

Re: Dear Mr. Einstein

brerlou — Sun, 04 Nov 2007 05:10:47 GMT

In an earlier comment on Dr Watson’s remarks I asked the following question. What are the relevant logical inferences to be drawn from the data in the first place? The most important one I can think of is that the bell curve is skewed a little more to the right and a little higher for Jews than for the rest of the Caucasian world. The blunt question no one has answered to my satisfaction is simply, So what? What on earth does that predict about the success or performance of Israel in the world community of nations, and what are the transmission lines by which these predictors operate? More importantly what does it suggest as to how the rest of the world should behave towards the nation of Israel?

It certainly doesn’t suggest, as some commentators naively imply, that all Jews are likely to be smarter than all other Caucasians or even than all other people of Sub-Saharan African descent. The late President Nkrumah of Sub-Saharan Ghana, for example tested out with an IQ of about 180! It simply suggests that a greater proportion of one group is likely to be more able in a narrow range of skills than can be found in another group.

The analogy is that a truckload of ore from site is likely to give a higher yield of gold than a truckload from the other site. That will always be true in chaos, which is never of perfect consistency. The flaw in Dr Watson’s naïve predictions is that if you only have 20 million cubic feet of the rich ore, it would be dumb to neglect the 2000 million cubic feet of the poorer grade ore. Similarly, 71.5 million very smart Israelis still suffer from severe limitations when competing with the productivity of the rest of the world, population 6 billion. So, maybe, for whatever reason, genetic, climatic, historical, or more recently, epigenetic, Sub-Saharan Africans are proportionately dumber than Super-Saharan Caucasians, (in a narrow range of skills.) But that lower grade ore will still, given enough of a breathing space to access adequate information be able to produce enormous quantities of what the world may need for future advancement of mankind, simply because there are more of them.

Let me end with a few questions, to what extent do these tests measure synthetic skill sets as opposed to analytic? Why does classical music seem so stilted when compared to jazz? What contribution does the ability to design have to make to the ability to produce? Does the basic g, measured by these tests really exhaust the range of human mental ability? How would we know?

Having been involved in the original Slate endeavor I stopped corresponding after Microsoft bought out the forum and transformed it into an online magazine, not only because it had lost that personal touch, but because most of the new dialogue seemed almost sophomoric and simplistic. It’s not that I have any delusions concerning my own abilities but I prefer to be forced to absorb new ideas rather than to be forced to explain why a certain statement is nonsense and doesn’t rise to the level of the rest of the conversation, but this topic is too important to ignore.

Firstly, the whole discussion of racial superiority is meaningless on an individual basis. The underlying tone of most of these discussions on race seems to imply that such conclusions can be drawn. One lunkhead even suggested that Watson’s remarks about Africa must be right because the blacks who work under him on his job don’t seem to understand his instructions. This egregious non-sequitur ignored such things as pay scales, educational attainment, tuning out of unpleasant attitudes in the boss, or the low expectations of the person doing the hiring, especially if he was thinking in terms of quotas.

Actually, even Watson seems to ignore the fact that natural selection plays out over such a long period of time that migration patterns would tend to wipe out geographical identifiers except in cases of such extreme isolation as found in the Galapagos Islands or such. For example in my own case, two of my 16 great-great-grandparents were Caucasian, one a Scottish crewman who jumped ship in the Caribbean, the other probably descended from exiled Irish, so if I fell into Watson’s test bed how would this infusion of white blood affect his data? It would probably be ignored.

In terms of American blacks, it is nothing short of dishonesty for a researcher to ignore the fact that true freedom, especially in education, was only granted to blacks in the lifetimes of most Americans still alive today, but like everything else most people can’t distinguish between winning an argument for their side, and winning an argument for the Truth.

Furthermore, since the definition of black American means anyone with any visible signs of blackness, most American blacks are even more intermingled with Caucasian stock than am I. Was any attempt made to correct for that? The truest test of racially divergent scores would be to test “light-skinned ethnics” against dark-skinned blacks from the same socio-economic background. That would eliminate some of the “noise.”

Re: Jewish Intelligence

brerlou — Sun, 04 Nov 2007 05:01:20 GMT

The blunt question no one has answered to my satisfaction is simply, So what? What on earth does that predict about the success or performance of Israel in the world community of nations, and what are the transmission lines by which these predictors operate? More importantly what does it suggest as to how the rest of the world should behave towards the nation of Israel?

Re: Jewish Intelligence

igravious — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 21:40:06 GMT

Dear Bob,

Leave my grammar outta this, she ain't done nothing to nobody.

Let's get a couple of things straight here. I don't want to talk about the Protocols of Whatever. I don't care about your collective paranoid persecution complex. I don't believe in the Id, the Ego, or the Super-Ego - I believe them to be Freudian fictions with no neuro-biological basis in reality. They are myths. Just like the racial myth you came out with. And no - I will not contest the myth point by point because hey, what's the point? If it's any consolation, I think Woody Allen's the funniest guy alive.

We'll agree to disagree, okay? You seem like a nice guy. And it must take you forever to write those posts.

What your daughter's experienced shows us is that our common foe is religious bigotry. I'm serious - I think it's disgusting.

By the way - I notice that you didn't capitalize the word 'black' though you capitalize all other proper nouns you use, like Brit, Jew, Montana & God. And you know, I really hate that term, 'blacks'. You whites are all the same.

Anyhow, I knew I shouldn't have posted to this thread - it's a ridiculous topic. Our science is donkey's years from illuminating this branch of knowledge in its entirety. I mean you personally absolutely no ill will, I am here to promote inclusivity and to beg you to use those smart brain cells of yours to construct an alternative socio-historical narrative. The one you're 'propagating' is too banal, simplistic and tiresome.

And no, I'm techincally not British old chum, I'm from Oirland - that other diaspora. Think of me as Leopold Bloom if that helps :) Good day to ya boyo!

Re: Bob B

MorganLee — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 20:00:45 GMT

Bob Brass:
Morgan:

I believe you may have mis-read my statement as to "upbringing" and "cultural residues". I stated that I gave them little weight as to advantageous IQ test results, i.e, that they conferred no advantages. You called my statement "incorrect" and then you stated exactly the same thing.

Yes? No?

Sorry. I apparently misread it.

Re: Jewish Intelligence

Bob Brass — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 19:37:11 GMT

Dearest Heleva:

I believe it played/plays the major role. First, you learn who and what we were/are, then you learn how we got where we are and why, then you learn why all of that is of paramount importance, and then you learn that you must teach exactly those things to your children. QED

XOXO

Bob

Re: Bob B

Bob Brass — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 19:30:48 GMT

Morgan:

I believe you may have mis-read my statement as to "upbringing" and "cultural residues". I stated that I gave them little weight as to advantageous IQ test results, i.e, that they conferred no advantages. You called my statement "incorrect" and then you stated exactly the same thing.

Yes? No?

Re: Jewish Intelligence

Bob Brass — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 19:19:26 GMT

Dear Sir (Brit, are we not?) Atheist:

And, of course, you are most humble - but let's not compare our relative egos. I was/am not "propagating" anything. I was/am commenting on Mr. Saletan's article and offering my own explanation(s) as to what everyone seems to notice but which no one wishes to admit exists.

When I wrote "vicissitudes of finance", I was not referring to basic mathematical skills. Surely, if your IQ is "off the scale" (how you ever wrestled it up there is a wonder), you must have known that I was referring to overall risk assessment/aversion, judging the caliber of the applicant for the loan, how much to charge for the loan, how long to make the loan, what collateral to require, how one will collect in the event of a default, and all that as a member of a people who have never had any rights of any sort within the society in which they resided. That's a rather major lot of vicissitudes, wouldn't you agree?

Jews were accused of charging outrageous interest on loans. When 90% of what the lender makes is taken from him by the king, when the lender assumes all the risk, when a noble to whom he has lent large sums can go to the king and get the king to 'waive' the loan - I think 'vicissitudes' is rather plain on its face, yes? Charging enough to make the loan worthwhile in the first place became a necessity and resulted in a burden of calumny completely undeserved. (See: vicissitudes, above)

It would help if you had actually considered/read what I had written in the sense of its entirety rather than leaping on a particular phrase like a squirrel with ADD onto a nut. I used the fourteenth century to illustrate a point. The culling had gone on since the Jews had been ousted from their two kingdoms, thousands of years ago. Remember? I did mention the fall of the two kingdoms!

I used the evolutionary model to frame the effect of continually-occasional (stay with me) negative forces and events that required skills be developed/honed to cope with those forces and events. I simply posited that the Jews originally came from genetic/cultural stock sufficiently capable of doing just that. Nothing more. Seen any Babylonians or Assyrians in their original form lately?

Show me a similarly cohesive genetic and cultural group that has undergone the 'experiment' which has been practiced on the Jews over thousands of years. Kept apart (control group), subjected to a variety of psychological and physical stressings (no homeland, the Holocaust, pogroms, forcible evictions and relocations, social discrimination by law); look at the result, and tell me that the Jews have not been forcibly evolved to a more intelligent state.

The evolutionary periods to which you referred are the timelines required for genetic/somatic changes within fairly simple organisms through random events. Humans have taken charge of the planet (no, everybody, please let's not get into how that's a good/bad thing!) mostly because our response time and intellectual growth has been/is far greater/faster than any other species.

And, no, I'm NOT trying to say that Jews run everything. If we did, there wouldn't have been any Holocaust! I will go so far as to say that any human group with a culture and cohesiveness similar to the Jews, subjected to the same forces as have been the Jews, would have turned out exactly as have the Jews! Maybe even the French!! (A stretch, I know, but I'm trying to be inclusive!)

Your equating my statement re: knowledge leading to power with our President is inane, pointless and belies your statement about your personal IQ (never mind your grammar). Of course, you never did state off which end of the scale your IQ had fallen.

As to my statement about ignorant, murderous non-Jews, that was made in the context of the fourteenth century, previously cited in my original comments, and is exactly correct. (See: squirrel, nut, above) That's precisely what the non-Jews at that time were. You have only to check around today to see how many people believe in the blood libel, how many people think The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was really written by the Jews, how many people think that the Holocaust never happened, or that the number of those who were murdered therein is greatly exaggerated, and you might think we'd never gotten out of the Dark Ages. The amount of 'fashionable anti-Semitism' evinced by supposedly educated professors in our colleges is astounding. I have proof of that. Here, in Montana (I'm a transplanted New Yorker - yes, a gen-u-ine New York Jew!!), there's a retired University of Montana professor of English who not infrequently throws a crypto-swastika-laden Letter To The Editor into the Missoulian. My daughter, a straight A student in Corvallis High School, was not infrequently called "Christ killer" by her fellow school chums while walking betwen classes. Nothing has changed; it's only hiding in the walls. And not very well hidden at that.

God had nothing to do with Jews being who and what they are. People other than the Jews had almost everything to do with it. As some blacks who have a grip on reality have said "Thank you!" to the long-deceased people who brought their ancestors to this country in chains, so we Jews should thank, ironically of course, those who have repressed, murdered and robbed us over the millenia. We couldn't have done it without you (See: irony, above).

Ta!

Re: Jewish Intelligence

igravious — Sat, 03 Nov 2007 14:40:50 GMT

I'm an atheist. IQ off the scale. Come from a long line of clever atheists.

I'm not sure exactly what it is about your post that makes me uneasy. You say you're not bragging but you sure strike me as quite arrogant.

I believe you are propagating a racial myth.

What are the vicissitudes of finance? Are we talking about adding/subtracting and calculating compound interest here?

You think 600 years is enough time for the results of this supposed inbreeding and supposed culling to take place? That's maybe 25 to 30 generations of non-directed mutation and selection. When I think about evolutionary adaptation I think in glacier time and millennia upon millennia.

who prize reading and analytical thinking, because those are the sources of knowledge, which is power

This of course explains Dubya don't it? But maybe he's the exception that proves your well-wrought rule?

You also seem to have managed to call every non-Jew murderous and ignorant which is pretty good going. Of course you didn't mean it like that, it's so hard sometimes for smart people to frame their sentences just so.

Who knows, maybe when God was handing out IQ tests maybe only the smart Jews stood forward?

Cheerio!