Human Nature

Re: Nobody WANTS a Gay kid

kaiso — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:44:12 GMT

"I fail to see what is wrong with bigotry"

Aha! There's your problem. You're a horrible person.

"The only way for them to have their own children is via science"

So? What's your point? The same goes for infertile straight couples. Also, it's not really all that "scientific", necessarily. A willing friend, a syringe, and some time would suffice in most cases.

(Although it's harder for gay men to find the "willing friend" than lesbians, since carrying a child in your womb for 9 months and then birthing it is a somewhat more extensive favor than ejaculating into a cup.)

Again, you don't see why it's a shitty thing to do to your child because you are a horrible person. It's a shitty thing to do because you're willing to believe anyone but your own child, who is sitting there telling you that this wasn't a choice he made, that he's living a perfectly nice and normal life, and that this person is important to him. You'd rather do anything than reconsider your idiotic "disapproval" and learn what your son's life and experiences actually have been. You'd rather hurt your own child and make it clear that you don't really love him - you just love an imaginary son who is just like him except not gay - than be polite to someone who has never done you any harm. If you don't understand what's so bad about that, there is no hope for you... you're a heartless monster.

I am proud of who I am, and that doesn't involve assless chaps. (Besides, you can see far worse than assless chaps at Mardi Gras in New Orleans. But since that's mostly naked women parading around for the entertainment of men, well, that's ok, right?)

I am a decent person, a good friend, a mother, a wife, a daughter, a sister. I've made my mistakes but I've tried to do my best and learn from them. I contribute to my community. I'm a good person to have around, and I never wear assless chaps. You want me to be ashamed of the fact that my partner is a woman instead of a man, but I find that to be completely ridiculous. There's no reason I should be ashamed of that fact. There's no reason I should allow you to get away with putting me down. You can take your ridiculous, pointless, clueless "disapproval" of me and shove it right up your ass.

Re: Nobody WANTS a Gay kid

gunsmoke — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:31:19 GMT

First. I fail to see what is wrong with bigotry, like it is a bad word. PhysicsGirl, are you a bigot for being intolerant of my opinion because it is different than yours? How dare you cast judgment on me casting judgment of others! I guess my opinions and values are worthless. I should just bend to will of the PC God and be accepting of anyone or anything for fear of being a bigot. Barf!

Second, of course gays can have kids but not with each other, duh! The only way for them to have their own children is via science or not being gay. Did I really have to spell it out?

Third. kaiso wants me to “grow up” and “learn a little.” Why does the gay community constantly need to feel validated? It is not my place to tell other consenting adults what they can and can’t do. I fail to see why it is a shitty thing for me to do. I do not approve of the lifestyle, I fail to see why I would want that in my home.

I may be more accepting if I was convinced that gayness was a genetic defect or disorder. As it is there many gays pushing their lifestyle and are out and flamboyantly PROUD. I am sorry, I find it hard to see how people are “born” gay translates to having the right to have a parade in assless chaps down main street.

Re: Nobody WANTS a Gay kid

pfeytser — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:25:43 GMT

Two things:

The idea that homosexuality is determined by hormonal influence in the womb seems to be catching on and I'm guessing that's what the "series of shots" reference is about, however, the idea of controlling hormone levels in the uterus sounds very delicate and complex, therefore it doesn't sound cheap. I'm afraid the greater social implications would be that rich folks would have the resources to use this 'medication' while the poor wouldn't (I think this is supported by the presently-existing correlation of the amount of pre-natal care that a woman receives and her socioeconomic level). So in the end it could be that there are more gay ppl born into lower socioeconomic levels.

"No child who found out he/she was set to be straight would be angry about that."
I think it's very difficult to say that right now because attitudes towards gay culture have changed significantly over the last 20 years and will in the next 20. I would imagine if you told a 20 year old today (who was born in 1988) that they were set 'straight', then their reaction would be completely different compared to someone who would receive that kind of news at 20 years old in 2028.

Re: Nobody WANTS a Gay kid

Deiter Ginsberg — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:35:48 GMT

Okay, so maybe nobody necessarily wants (i.e.: aims to have) a child that is homosexual. People don't generally want a child to be born with a perpensity towards depression or ADHD, or a child that is born that inclined to tempers and mood swings. I don't mean to equate homosexuality with either of those disorders, but the point stands: things that generally inconvenience mainstream society aren't usually hoped for in progeny.

Maybe people shouldn't hope for a gay child. Just as people maybe shouldn't hope for a blonde child, or a child with blue hair, or a boy or a girl. Maybe expectations should just hover around "I hope this baby is healthy." or "I hope he/she can have a happy life."

Maybe we should just be thankful the child came out with all it's fingers and toes, and weather the rest as time goes on. The true measure of a parent isn't what a parent does with a perfect child. . . no one's had a perfect child before. The true measure of a parent is how he/she helps his/her child weather hardships.

Re: I don't want gay kids

diginit — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:21:48 GMT

roch2003:

Buggie (sorry for the late reply)

How is it their problem that I'm unnerved? What the hell do they care about my opinion. If anything it's my problem. I don't advocate any form of discrimination against gay men or women. Whatever they want to do together, in groups, alone is all fine with me - freaky but fine. If someone has a problem with that perspective too bad - it's about as honest and fair as I can muster.

But the issue was whether I would choose to prevent my children from becoming gay through some harmless procedure - the answer is yes. If it were to place my child at any risk I would not.

I might agree with you only if at one ponit in our life we had to MAKE the choice to either be hetro or homo. But the majority of us do not make that choice. No one has the right to make that choice for their child.

Re: I don't want gay kids

roch2003 — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:28:20 GMT

Buggie (sorry for the late reply)

How is it their problem that I'm unnerved? What the hell do they care about my opinion. If anything it's my problem. I don't advocate any form of discrimination against gay men or women. Whatever they want to do together, in groups, alone is all fine with me - freaky but fine. If someone has a problem with that perspective too bad - it's about as honest and fair as I can muster.

But the issue was whether I would choose to prevent my children from becoming gay through some harmless procedure - the answer is yes. If it were to place my child at any risk I would not.

Re: Nobody WANTS a Gay kid

PhysicsGirl — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:30:18 GMT

gunsmoke:
I think if my child was gay I would be devastated. I can say I would not want to be a part of that part of his/her life. I don’t think I would disown him or her, but the partner or their “family” would not be welcome.

Wow. How sad.

gunsmoke:
Gay kids means end of the line genetically speaking, especially for gay men. No grandkids. No greatgrandkids.

So? Is that all your kids are to you? A way to "continue" your genes? That's pretty sad. Not quite as sad as the rampant bigotry above, but close.

Also, gay men and women do have kids .... What if your children were straight but couldn't/didn't have kids? Would you think less of them as well?

gunsmoke:
Sure there is adoption, but it is not the same. It is a fact of evolution, propagation of the species. That is one thing gays can’t do.

Human beings are in no danger of dying out through lack of breeding. In fact, it would be better if more people chose to not have kids.

Re: Nobody WANTS a Gay kid

PhysicsGirl — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:26:37 GMT

maxo:
Mostly my emotional heat on this comes from a lifetime of people lying to even themselves about what they will do (like the 24 year old who is not going to have kids-- I know several guys that married those girls and ended up with kids-

So, of course, everyone who claims this is lying. The plural of anecdote isn't evidence. Of the people I know who claimed that they absolutely didn't want to have kids, none of them have. So who is right? I suppose it simply depends on the people you hang out with.

in a couple cases when the 24 year old unilaterally changed her mind and secretly stopped taking their pills).

maxo:
in straight society, as people have kids- you basically lose them as friends. They are now in the "I have kids, do kid things, talk about my kids, and do not go partying/to conventions/to ski with my straight friends any more".

This is a kids thing rather than a gay/straight thing. Don't forget, many gay couples (~1/3) are raising children. Children are a lot of work and take a lot of time. You can't just tell junior to sit tight while you go out and hit the bar. That's just the way it is. As a childless person I have found that I spend less time with my friends after they have kids because they are busy, but I've also found that if I make the effort we can still hang out. It just depends on your priorities. If you're only interested in being friends with people who will barhop with you every week, well it's just not going to work once they have kids.

maxo:
With gay people they are cut out by the couples, by the breeders,

Since gay people do couple up and have kids, this isn't particularly relevant to sexual orientation. A person who is uncoupled and doesn't have kids will feel a bit left out if all of his or her friends couple up and pop out a few rug-rats. You don't need to be gay to get to that point.

maxo:
and by straight friends who want to go do straight things

LOL! This is the most ridiculous thing ever. People are people and they do people things. What is a straight thing?

maxo:
(let's say as simple as going out to a straight club while the gay person goes to a gay club or goes on a gay themed vacation vs going with the "gang".).

A gay themed vacation? Does this involve cute pool boys? You *do* realize that in a group of people everyone will have their favorite clubs or bars. The reality is that if you're just planning on hanging out and not hooking up, it doesn't really matter whether you go to a gay club or a straight one.

maxo:
By the time people are 40, huge numbers of straights never knowingly deal with a gay person again. I think i'm down to one bi friend from my college days.

I think this says more about you than it does about the way people are.

Re: Nobody WANTS a Gay kid

PhysicsGirl — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:52:20 GMT

maxo:
And if you do succeed, that just means that your line/beliefs go when you die and the high breeder lady who has 6 kids replaces you and your values.

This may come as a surprise to you, but values aren't hereditary.

Re: I don't want gay kids

diginit — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:23:02 GMT

Did you choose to be str8? Probably not. You do not have that right to choose that for you child. Your childern will be what they will be. Just remember the majoriy of str8's did not choose to be str8. Nor does the majority of gay people choose to be gay.

Re: Nobody WANTS a Gay kid

diginit — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:46:57 GMT

gunsmoke

Yes we do. And more of us gays are having our own biological kids. I know I have of my own and I' m a guy and gay. If possible would I alter their sexual orintation "No". There sexual orintation is what it is and there is nothing I would or could do to change that. All I want is for my kids to be as happy as the can. Oh by the way both of kids are str8.

Re: I don't want gay kids

buggie — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:25:14 GMT

roch2003:
Buggie:

Relax pal...I still say nothings wrong with it. Just because you didn't measure up to what you're parents wanted doesn't mean what they wanted for you was wrong.

No, what they wanted wasn't wrong, but assuming that I would be a certain type of person just because they were was wrong. It's not about being a "worse" person and a "better" person- I'm not addressing anything about being a good, kind person or even successful person, I'm just talking about being a DIFFERENT person.

roch2003:
Behavior issue - it unnerves me when men act feminine. I know not all gay men act that way but many do. I don't dislike them for it but it's distrubing all the same. Again call me whatever you like at this point - I won't disown any little labels you wish to stick me with.

but...is that really THEIR problem that YOU get unnerved??? maybe it unnerves them when you do something. Everyone on this planet does something that annoys someone else. That doesn't justify discrimination of any kind. You're basing the idea that you were change a major factor of your child's life based on the fact that you get "unnerved" by a certain behavior of a few individuals? My dad hates when I twirl my hair- do you think he should have given me hormone shots in the womb?

Re: I don't want gay kids

Richmond — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:06:22 GMT

Being gay does not = acting like a member of the opposite gender.

I know football players--big hunks of muscle and pizza--who are gay. They don't know how to dress. They don't listen to show tunes.

But at night, they go to bed with other men.

Being gay isn't about "offending" str8 folks' sensibilities.

I don't ask you what you do to your wife at night. Why would you care what your son does to his lover?

Jesus.

Re: I don't want gay kids

roch2003 — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:04:49 GMT

Buggie:

Relax pal...I still say nothings wrong with it. Just because you didn't measure up to what you're parents wanted doesn't mean what they wanted for you was wrong.

Call me a homophob - alright fine. I can take on that label. What I tried to give in my post was an even handed perspective of how most straight fathers (middle america - red staters) would be reacting to this topic. What I am today is not where I'll be tomorrow. If my sons are gay I'll be forced to change the way I feel and think about things - dramatically and in a very personal way. Call me a puss but I'm not excited about going through that. Same reason most parents want kids like them - hopes to better understand them.

As I said in an earlier post - my aim is to accept my kids for whoever they turn out to be. But I'll admit that's probably harder done than said.

Behavior issue - it unnerves me when men act feminine. I know not all gay men act that way but many do. I don't dislike them for it but it's distrubing all the same. Again call me whatever you like at this point - I won't disown any little labels you wish to stick me with.

What kind of control freak are you?

Trebuchet — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:05:48 GMT

Why do I get the distinct feeling that you have a gay child and that you refuse to talk to your child about it?

Your child is not a statistic. More people with blond hair commit suicide than people with red hair. Does that mean I should consider having my child's genes altered before birth to give them red hair?

My take on it is that parents need to focus on giving their children life skills - the ability to reason logically and the desire to make the right choices. The rest of their personality should belong to them.

If you do that right, there is no need for anything else but the celebration of life, gay or straight.