Human Nature

"choose to be different"

JGC — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 14:25:09 GMT

"I cannot choose to be white no matter how hard I try, homosexuals on the other hand can choose to be different.

>>They can choose to act differently--that's hardly the same thing as choosing to be different.

I know of no evidence which suggests a homosexual can anymore choose to be sexually oriented to individuals of the opposite gender than heterosexuals can choose to be sexually oriented to individuals of the same gender.

Both may have some ability to act as if they were, but that's hardly thesame thing, is it?

Re: Stop Conflating Homosexuality w/ Race

jacquescas — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 04:24:49 GMT

So take your logic and apply it to opposite sex relationships and people will will its the vaginal eroticism, its not about love most men cheat and most marriages end in divorce... its just about genitals and vaginal penetration by a penis.... see your own words and own logic turned around makes anything look bad through that lens. So is there a set of rules of where are acceptable places to put a penis? vagina yes, mouth depends, anus no... hands yes.... etc its just pretty childish

Re: Black like me

BobVB — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 22:35:00 GMT

Black people have been stigmatized in the past primarily for the way they look, not the way they act. No, that's not true. Black people are not stigmatized because they don't match the drapes, but because of what that is a marker for in the the minds of the bigot. In there minds its because blacks are 'lazy', 'stupid', 'criminal', 'unprincipled', 'sex-crazed', 'disease ridden' and all the rest. Yes, racial hatred is always based on what the race supposedly 'is' or 'does', its just wonderfully convenient for the bigot that they are color coded for easy identification. Its always 'behavior'. But that's not the way it really is, is it? Neither Race or Sexual Orientation have any intrinsic behaviors associated with them. And of course there is no behavior that gay people engage in that 10x or more straight people don't engage in too. The idea that sexual orientation is a behavior is bogus, since long before anyone has sex they have identified the gender that makes their heart race, they voice stammer, their stomach quiver. It might be easier to 'pass' as another sexual orientation than some people can on race, but the quality is no less an intrinsic part of them. You might not like that sexual orientation is like race but like it or not it is and I am 'offended' that you can't see such a simple truth.

Re: Stop Conflating Homosexuality w/ Race

almoore1024 — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 18:56:06 GMT

Before I can start rooting around in that viscous pool of your ignorance you chose to treat the rest of this site to, I'm going to need to know where in the hell you get the idea that homosexuality is a choice. May I presume that you yourself have opted out of that particular lifestyle? Shy of personal experience, if I have to walk on the eggshells of racial sensitivity and not make wildly insubstantiated claims about what it must be like to be alternatively raced in the US then I would appreciate the same degree of consideration about the choice I made: to not let enlightened individuals like yourself with your racial politics keep me from living my life as I so choose regardless of how dehumanizing your particular views about my makeup may be.

Re: Stop Conflating Homosexuality w/ Race

oxboggle — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 02:30:04 GMT

What you are is full of crap.
Right now, HIV infection is on the rise again, and the group leading the way in frequency of new infections is YOUNG BLACK MEN. And why? Because of assholes like you.

i don't think you're funny and I don't think there's any more point to just mocking you for your bigotry and stupidity, because it's a bigotry that has the power to kill others, and you deploy it (and your moral judgement for which you take no moral responsibility) without conscience.

You SAY you're a black man. Who cares? You could claim to be a fucking Schnauzer Dog, and who could deny it? The lie here is not about anybody but you, and it's that you're not a bigot. Bigotry is your chosen life style. Also stupidity and selfishness. So basically, you're a George Bush republican. And full of crap, as noted.

Re: Stop Conflating Homosexuality w/ Race

BOSTONBASIN — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:05:09 GMT

Dear Jacquescas,

Thank you for your insightful response..however..I as a black man find find it difficult to empathise with a group who's whole exhistence is based on thethe anal and oral eroticism. When homosexuals celebrate their homsexualityu in Gay Rights Parades..the very heart of what they celebrate lies between the legs. Not whether one was a doctor or a scientist or a teacher. It is anal oral eroticism. It is a masterful lie thye have played on the populace. Oh the gays want us to think its all about love..its all about longevity of their homosexual relationships..no..its about the genitals..no more..no less. I pass no moral judgement.

Re: Stop Conflating Homosexuality w/ Race

jacquescas — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:05:39 GMT

see BOSTONBASIN what you say leads you down a rabbit hole. You say a lifestyle that offers nothing to society but a sterile self indulgence. Which is code for you can't have children pass on your genes etc. Then what about sterile men? people in the clergy with celibacy vows, a woman who lost her uterus to cancer? If the only thing we offered to society were our offspring there wouldn't be much of it would there? I disagree on that statement, its pretty shallow and not well thought out, the most famous people are famous for deeds not chilrden. George Washington Carver for Peanut Butter, Armstrong for walking on the moon, Da Vinci for his works etc. to say that they can only be classified as great people because who they sleep with at night at the end of the day day is quite a strange viewpoint. It seems fine to teach young children about homosexuality, just like we teach children about racial diversity. No homosexual is worried about confusing a child since first of all we are talking about something like 1 or 2 lessons a year vs a whole other multitude showing the normal male-female dynamic. Secondly and more importantly its not a choice, it is biological and thus telling a young straight child about it does no more than telling young white children about chinese boys and girls it wont make them chinese. In the same way it wont make them gay, just understanding and tolerant of gay people. Like we are of left handed people, or people with blue eyes. Finally, a hint, when someone starts a sentence by saying "I pass no moral judgement..." it usually has it coming, especially when its the person who started the post basically passing pubic judgement. Then to have the line "A lifestyle that offers nothing to society but a sterile self indulgence..." Isn't that to some degree passing judgement? why don't you just man up and say you are passing judgement because you rhetoric is quite clear. I pass judgement on you as a close minded african american who has never probably seen more than a handful of homosexuals and at the same time when you look down on us with denigration and righteousness you indignantly look up at the man and wonder why he looks down on you. And in that moment when the sun should reflect a beam of light on you and you should see the vicious circle of hate and ignorance you are in... You turn away daft to your eureka moment and continue to look down on your fellow man.

Re: Stop Conflating Homosexuality w/ Race

BOSTONBASIN — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:43:07 GMT

Thanks for yuor response. Its not about stepping out of my reality.

Its more about seeing past the great lie of the 21st century. Homosexuality is what it is..no less...no more..but the powerful homosexual lobby demands society to bto not only be accepting of homosexuality but to embrace it..to teach it under the guise of diversity to encourage the young to read about it in the form of colorful childrens books portraying kissing princes and duel mommies. They wish value to placed upon something that has no value..except to the homosexual. Homosexualism is increasing less an accidentof birth but a lifestyle to choose. To worship at the alter of oral and anal eroticism is at the very nexus of the lifestyle. No more..no less. I pass no moral judgement here..I do not proclaim homosexuality a sin..it is what it is and what it is has very little worth.

A lifestyle that offers nothing to society but a sterile self indulgence..

Re: Stop Conflating Homosexuality w/ Race

jacquescas — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:32:11 GMT

so basically what you are saying is you can't step out from your view and empathize with others? It isn't a contest on who is discriminated against more, that is literally one of the most juvenile things one can do. Its recognizing that both groups face discrimination and should have some solidarity with each other with their struggles, even if its comes from different cultural points and different viewpoints. being gay and black i agree wholeheartedly that blacks had it far worse than gays, but attempting to quantify discrimination only does a service to those discriminating.

Re: Stop Conflating Homosexuality w/ Race

BOSTONBASIN — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:03:03 GMT

As a black man I too take great offense at homosexuals using the race comparison. I think its a rare event when a cop pulls a homosexual over foR the mere fact that they're gay or the security people follows the gay around the dept. store due to their homosexuality. Something tells me more blacks are descriminated against in terms of housing, banking, mortgages. I think more blacks attend inferior schools than gays. In fact I think it woiuld be fair to say that the average gay is better educated, better housed, morepolitically influential and born with more trust funds than the average black. Do not compare me with a natural but abnormal aboration of nature.

Re: Stop Conflating Homosexuality w/ Race

jacquescas — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 15:35:57 GMT

i just did a few more bits of research here are some facts. There are gay worms, are you saying they choose to be gay? So if there is a genetic basis found and its not a choice, does that mean you will either accept homosexuality as part of humanity and life, or will you say its a defect that must be cured. then the question arises what is a defect? Blue eyes are considered inferior because people with blue eyes generally test to have lower eyesight than those of us with darker eyes. Left handed people lives slightly shorter lives than right handed people (a consequence of living in a right hand world?) Should we screen for these defects and correct them too? Although doing this will reduce genetic diversity, which is the hallmark of evolution, the fact that we are not 100% carbon copies. With less genetic diversity a population becomes more susceptible to diseases and genetic abnormalities...

Re: Stop Conflating Homosexuality w/ Race

jacquescas — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:55:23 GMT

As a black gay man (half white half black) I am always offended by the black side of my culture, the group that was literally treated as sub-human for 500 years cannot empathize with another group fighting for rights. Regardless of biology and choice.

When you say you can't choose to be white, it makes me think what if science allowed you to make that choice in a few years, you could clone hair follicles of white people and have a transplant giving you different hair, nose jobs and other cosmetic surgeries, and possibly some type of melanin eliminating therapy. If this were possible would you denounce black people for turning white now that it was possible? Michael Jackson has done a pretty good job of turning himself at least not black, he has blue eyed blond haired children.

Homosexuality is found in every animal species that we have spent any amount of time checking, dogs, cats, albatrosses. sheep, penguins, bears, pigs, eagles, rhinos, wasps, monkeys etc... and yet we still act like its a choice? i don't see a bear cub being molested turning it gay or because it saw two male bears have sex it became gay, it simply always was.

Also there doesn't have to be a why. people often say if its genetic then why, what is the advantage. Well what is the advantage of blue eyes ? Its one of the beauties of sex vs asexual reproduction, we pass on such a litany of genetic material that we each are like a little biological chemistry set slightly different than each other, the feminization of the male brain (which is currently the leading scientific theory) could have advantages that go beyond what we see ( think about Wesley snipes in the movie Blade, half vampire half human) and allow for a unique combination of the subtle difference between men and women, or it could be just a common genetic trait like blue eyes or uni-brows.

The only people who call homosexuality a choice are heterosexuals. and it is almost always rooted in non scientific research and usually has strong religious undertones.

Its funny because you don't even have the best anti-homosexual argument. If you really wanted to make an impact you should continue to push for it to be a disorder not a choice, then work towards being able to identify it at some embryonic state. Obviously at first you probably wouldn't be able to cure it, but you could abort it. since the gay population is considered around 7-10% you would be aborting an extra 350,000 to 400,000 babies a year, and eliminating that many homosexuals. Eventually it wouldn't have to be so brutal as probably with you and your ilk pushing the research you could possibly reverse sexuality early in the womb, although who knows long term side effects, but hey who knows the long term side effects of Lasik. who knows in a generation or two you could almost wipe out the homosexuals until all there is are a few old queens holding on to the last disco ball in their 90's. If you really want to be anti-homosexual that is the route for you.

Although personally i think what will happen is once gay marriage becomes fully legal and gays are allowed to openly serve in the military people will spend less and less resources trying to figure it out, the same way after WWII all the race related research done in Germany was eventually phased out as people will just deem it a waste of time and resources. People don't want homosexual children because society makes it tougher, if that were not the case then people would be as indifferent to it as the hair color of their children. Oh yah, when gay marriage becomes legal the number of homosexuals in the US could increase significantly as now marriage visas would be legal and the US would be the great gay hope for oppressed homosexuals in other countries (eastern block, china, south east asia, africa etc) They would come here looking for marriages and citizenship by the millions, thus strengthening the ranks and lowering the likelihood of any medical breakthrough in reversing sexuality.

Re: Stop Conflating Homosexuality w/ Race

namu — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:40:16 GMT

I feel bad for you that you are so offended by a gesture that I believe most gays offer as a point of solidarity. They are not equating being gay to being black but rather humans to humans, "look at these humans we once treated as subhuman, why are we still treating some humans as subhuman?" I think it is a valid comparison and I am sorry that you do not understand it as such.

I also do not understand your point on choice. Homosexuality is not a choice, however whether a person lives thier life without a partner in order to conform to traditional expectations or not is indeed a choice, I agree with you there. However why should we expect gays to make this choice? Two gay partners living their lives together protected by the same basic human rights we both enjoy would not be harmful to anyone would it? What is so wrong about it that we would expect a human being to subjugate thier basic human need to love & be loved to conform to societal norms? We are talking about two consenting adults here so what is the trade off for them that would make it a better choice for them to deny thier human nature to please someone like yourself?

And I guess I don't mean just you specifically, I have seen this argument before & I do not understand it but I am curious to understand better what your side of said argument is because I all am really getting from your post is "not all humans are entitled to basic human rights because I say so".

Re: Black like me

chinpudding — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:52:48 GMT

"To me, if people choose to act in a certain manner thats different than most, thats their choice but I dont think that its fair to compare it to people who can't help that they are different. Of course, if scientists find the smoking gun which proves homosexuality is genetic then my argument falls apart."

First of all, it is very likely your argument is going to fall apart so prepare for that. The evidence is ever-growing that gayness is something that can't be helped.

But it doesn't even have to go there. People can't help that they are born male or female. Your own personal view is that males should act, look and behave and have sex a certain way, and that if they don't that is some moral failing on their part. (You also likely believe that females should act, look, behave and have sex a certain way, and if they don't... well that's gross too).

However people may choose or be drawn to express themselves is really none of our business unless that self expression hurts us or someone else in a tangible way (right to the pursuit of happiness and whatnot). You are certainly free to prefer certain types of behaviors over others. So go right ahead. But the issue at hand is how we might scientifically mandate gay people out of existence. You can be offended all you want that gay people choose to act that way while other groups can't help it... but that's on you. There is a much deeper moral and ethical issue at hand that affects all of us.

Re: Silly like me

oxboggle — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:47:32 GMT

Your argument? What argument?

The reason why racism comes up as a term of comparison has not a single, solitary thing to do with similarities between black and gay people (and there are actually people who are BOTH -- did you know that?) but everything to do with prejudice, "scientific" and "religious," against both by a self-identified white, straight majority.

Statistics have been propounded to establish this "majority" as a "norm," and the nonsense goes on. But none of this has ANYTHING to do with whether any of the nearly countless varieties of sexual deviance (construct a false norm and you will turn most folks into deviants) are matters of personal or lifestyle choice, like choosing the color of your couch.

What all this proves to me is that NARCISSISM is, if not the American norm, at least the norm among people posting and posing on this board. We all seem to be sitting in our little home offices and cubicles, typing away and facing up to the True Great Question of the age: WHAT DOES THIS ALL HAVE TO DO WITH MEEEEEEEEEE??????????????

People, give it a rest.