Faith-Based

Re: My tradition on the origins of mankind.

onio- — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 01:46:15 GMT

Ok, I need to go back and re familiarize myself with the Eddas. It has been so long that I do not remember the Voluspa very well. I will have to look it up so that I can remember all of it.

Re: Good post!

einhverfr — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 20:47:41 GMT

Only problem is-- if that tree ever fell on my house, it would probably flatten it. So far, the verdict of the arboculturists is: "if it starts to crack, take it out-- otherwise it will probably be fine for the immediate future."

Re: I like it.

einhverfr — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 20:33:11 GMT

Interesting-- I went back and was checking my sources against other, newer books that I have and found out something I hadn't thought of.

The querquuns hypothesis is generally somewhat controversial because it looks like it is based in part in the controversial ideas of the origins of Celtic and Italic languages from a common root, and the fact that *perkw/*kwerkw- are the general accepted Indo-European roots for "oak." In addition to checking that out, I also found something which further weakens my hypothesis.

Damian McManus in "A Guide to Ogham" drops a few bombshells on my previous point I had previously missed. He wrotes:
"But the Early Irish grammarians like their Greek and Latin counterparts knew little or nothing about historical phonology and they could not have reconstructed Q... as the original value of symbol 10."

Further down he discusses Cert/Q and writes: "Cert: This letter name is undoubtedly related to Welsh *perth 'bush' and cognate with Latin Quercus" Hmmm... Maybe *Perku/*Kwerkw- might have been developed into generic words for tree in the Celtic languages.

Oh well, learn something new every day :-) Thanks.

Re: I like it.

dumb_blonde — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:04:31 GMT

spock:
Apologies for all the typos above.

you guys lost me several posts ago. I would have no clue if there was a typo or not.

Re: I like it.

spock — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:57:10 GMT

Apologies for all the typos above.

Re: I like it.

spock — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:56:18 GMT

einhverfr:
Also note that the Brythonic languages (Welsh, Cornish, Breton) and Gaulish languages had gone through an additional sound shift where the K phoneme was replaced with a P phoneme (the difference between the P and Q Celtic languages).

I'm aware of the K (or more accurately C) and P shift. For example, the word for heanland or promentory is qite commonly found in the placenames of both traditions. In Irish it would be "ceann", in Welsh or Cornish "Pen" e.g. Penzance.

But this shift, nor the writing of the word as "cuercuuns" could not explain Pliny'ys alleged finding. The word simply does not exist in Gaelic.

Re: I like it.

einhverfr — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:09:01 GMT

Probably because I haven't seen them. I get so many questions from you and I *really* do try to answer them all. Please ask again :-)

As for the letter Q.... First understand that different Celtic languages used sometimes different alphabets. The Irish alphabet is different from the Latin one in some key ways (no letter Q, and some of the letters look more Greek than Latin). At the same time, the Gauls and Welsh used the Latin alphabet extensively. At the same time, Irish Ogham had two distinct marks for the K phoneme (the second pentad, numbers 4 and 5) These were both transliterated as a C in Old Irish but generally are referenced in Ogham studies as being C and Q (see Damian MacMannus's "A Guide to Ogham"). So when you are trying to go back to Old Celtic, you have legitimate questions of transliteration of reconstructed words.

Also note that the Brythonic languages (Welsh, Cornish, Breton) and Gaulish languages had gone through an additional sound shift where the K phoneme was replaced with a P phoneme (the difference between the P and Q Celtic languages).

As always your question is a good one. We could write Querquuns as Kuerkuuns, or Cuercuuns. However, it doesn't really matter since at that time, writing hadn't been adopted.

Re: I like it.

spock — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:44:26 GMT

einhverfr:

The issue with following Pliny's translation is that the Old Celtic word for "oak" was probably "querquuns" (which would be cognate with the Latin "quercus" meaning "oak"). *Deru-derived words (usually from the o-grade form) which refer to oaks in Celtic languages appear to have surfaced later first as kennings and later as names. When we break "Druides" down by Indo-European root, we eventually get *Dru (steadfast) + *wid (-> vision, wisdom, etc). In short the title seems to have meant someone of steadfast knowledge or wisdom.

I have posted several queries about your mis-use and/or mis-interpretation of Celtic myths and/or language. You have not responded to any. This is beginning to annoy me.

Yet again you have posited another spurious connection, this time with oak. For a start, the letter "Q" does not exist in any Celtic language that I'm aware of. It's sound would probably be transliteratred as "chu". It's preoposterous that there is a Celtic word called "querquuns". And anyway, what would Pliny know? Apart from a few slaves, would he have had any direct contact? Even Tacitus, a few centuries later, had only a rudimentary knowledge of the Germanic tribes beyond the Rhine. The Gaelic word for oak is "dair" or in old Gaelic "doire", which is pretty close to dru as you say. And yes it feartures in many placenames such as "Doire" (Derry).

But as Webster's points out, it's a Latin term for a similar sounding Gaelic word: "Druid \Dru"id\, noun. [Latin expression Druides; of Celtic origin; compare to Irish Gaelic draoi".

The Gaelic word Draoi would usually be translated as wizard. The priestly connotation would be reserved, for "sagart" from the Latin.

Re: My tradition on the origins of mankind.

dumb_blonde — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:12:57 GMT

It would be great if we can get some of these discussions going. I like to read about other beliefs & traditions, there so is many I have never heard.

Re: Good post!

dumb_blonde — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:43:40 GMT

einhverfr:
You would like the 100-year-old spruce tree I have in my front yard then :-)

I'm in love.

Re: Good post!

einhverfr — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:32:04 GMT

You would like the 100-year-old spruce tree I have in my front yard then :-)

Re: I like it.

einhverfr — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:30:35 GMT

There is actually more to it then that, but then this does not pertain to my original post.

*deru and *dru (* indicates a reconstructed root) are extremely important roots in a lot of other Indo-European cultures as well. Consider the Gaulish word "druides" which Pliny translates as "men of the oak" and Diodorus translates as "Philosopher."

Pliny relied on the Greek "dru" meaning "oak" to come up with his translation despite the fact that the languages are somewhat different. Diodorus looked at social roles and didn't even bother to translate the word literally. He just thought they seemed like philosophers to him.

The issue with following Pliny's translation is that the Old Celtic word for "oak" was probably "querquuns" (which would be cognate with the Latin "quercus" meaning "oak"). *Deru-derived words (usually from the o-grade form) which refer to oaks in Celtic languages appear to have surfaced later first as kennings and later as names. When we break "Druides" down by Indo-European root, we eventually get *Dru (steadfast) + *wid (-> vision, wisdom, etc). In short the title seems to have meant someone of steadfast knowledge or wisdom.

The other interesting area this root is found is in Greek literature with a strange formuleic merism "dru" + "petros" (Oak and Rock) which is found in Homeric poetry and elsewhere to refer to plain and obvious truth. For example, when Odysseus returns in disguise, Penelope says to him "you are not from the oak (dru) and rock (petros)" indicating that she knows he is not what he appears.

Good post!

dumb_blonde — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:07:46 GMT

I like hearing of other beliefs, especially ones like this. I am biased when it comes to trees, I'm a tree hugger.

You are very right, we should take lessons from this.

Please post more like this. I know little about the Norse mythology.

I like it.

Woolley — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:06:03 GMT

Interesting origin of the word "truth", I did not know that but it makes a lot of sense. Consider the creation of words. First one needs to explain something more precisely, that necessitates a search for a word. When that word is not found, borrow another word that has some qualities resembling the desired meaning. In this case, the concept of truth was probably around prior to the creation of the word truth from dru however perhaps it was easier to compare the concept to that big ole tree. I can see someone 8.0000 years ago saying to their son:

You need to tell the, uh, whats the word for it? I don't know what you are talking about father. Well, you see that tree over there, the big one? Its real, its everlasting, its the same, its there, you can see it and touch it. Ok Dad. You see, you need to tell me things that are like that tree, real, not made up and fleeting.

My tradition on the origins of mankind.

einhverfr — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:54:03 GMT

There has been a complaint that nothing new has been discussed on this list. I figured I would pose something I doubt has been discussed here-- the Norse myth relating to the creation of mankind and what it means for us Norse pagans.

The primary source is the Old Norse poem Voluspa (links to various translations and manuscript transliterations at the bottom of the Wikipedia article).

Basically Odhinn and his two brothers walked across the newly formed landscape and found two trees, Ask (Ash) and Embla (Elm), though Hollander translates the latter as "vine." The three gods grant each one gift to the trees which then become human beings. Odhinn gives Ond ("Breath" or "spirit"). Hoenir gives "Odhr" ("Song," "Inspiration," "Frenzy," or "Madness"). Lodhur gives complexion and countenance.

I have spent a long time thinking about this story. Despite the fact that it is the basis for the kennings referring to people as trees, it also raises the possibility that Yggdrassil may be referring to the human condition rather than a mythical tree. That is a discussion for another time, however.

The major implication is that we are like trees-- we grow best by first setting down our roots and then sending our branches up towards the light, but also that we have capacity for things because of the divine three-fold gift of Odhinn, Hoenir, and Lodhur which are not given to our vegetable cousins including the capacity for inspiration and song, and our spirit.

One final thought is that trees provide one more value for us as humans. The Modern English word "Tree" comes from the same root as the Greek word "Dru" meaning "oak." However, there area large number of other words which also derive from *deru (and it's zero-grade variant *dru): Truth and Troth. The current accepted linguistic interpretation of the *deru root (all three variants) is that they refer to things which are solid, strong, and steadfast. Truth is that which endures, just as trees are strong and steadfast.

We should endeavor to be more like trees.