Faith-Based

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

lanie1400 — Mon, 16 Jul 2007 05:16:05 GMT

Who is Plotz? and are you sure he is whiney?

Re: To me it sounds like Plotz misreads the

lanie1400 — Mon, 16 Jul 2007 05:11:03 GMT

Whoa , sorry, I just belive that Jesus was a rabbi and died at the age of 33. Jewish law insists on propagation, no?

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

Snuffles — Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:28:56 GMT

Zygote:

I find it hard to follow how a vague reference comparing bread and wine to body and blood could be construed as a god commannding people to engage in ritual cannibalism. Especially since Jesus spoke so much in parables.

Maybe it's just me.

Well, at least as far as the Eucharistic meal goes, Jesus stated and restated himself a number of times that his followers must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Although he did indeed often speak in parables, this is actually a teaching of his that caused many of his followers to leave him, as is stated in one of the Gospels (sorry, can't think of the one at the moment). So if it was something he only meant metaphorically, as in most of his parables, than I assume he may have found a way to restate himself, rather than lose followers. Of course, this is quite contentious, since a lot of Christians other than Catholics and some others sects believe he did not mean it in a literal sense.

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

Zygote — Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:46:46 GMT

The Church would never condone eating people. However, if God commands us to eat of his flesh and drink his blood, who am I to disagree. Especially since only God could command such a thing.

I find it hard to follow how a vague reference comparing bread and wine to body and blood could be construed as a god commannding people to engage in ritual cannibalism. Especially since Jesus spoke so much in parables.

Maybe it's just me.

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

Snuffles — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 20:04:45 GMT

bubbuh:

Dear Snuffles,

If your god has three natures, why not four? Which part of his three natures expresses the feminine so active in what is largely a biological duality here on earth? If your god is a unity, why split it up? The jews don't. Neither do the Muslims. Come to think of it, the Mormons don't either or the Jehovah's Witnesses or quite few other Christian sects. In fact, neither did many early Christians who often were killed by for their dissent. Assert your monotheism all you like; but, the rest of us can count. Try here for some non-mysterious definitions of the kinds of theisms. Scroll a bit down the page and you'll find them.

Does one pray to saints in Catholicism? Do saints have their own little alters, a statue and sets of votive candles at which one prays? Why, yes, I believe they do. Again, nomenclature is of no importance compared to activity.

Why does Jesus happen to have the same birthday as Mithra, Sol-Invictus, and Attis. among others? Why does his story so resemble these others?

Why do Christian rites more closely resemble those of Dionysus, albeit in a more civilized fashion, than Jewish worship?

Why does Christian theology more closely resemble Zoroastrianism than Judaism?

If you want to be offended, perhaps, you should start with those who prepared you so poorly to answer these questions.

Your objections are rather like Monty Python's Dead Parrot routine. You may assert that the parrot ts just resting. However, any who care to examine the bird will quickly determine that it is "bleeding deceased."

I have limited time at the moment, so I shall give a brief response. Why three natures and not four? Because three is the number that God has shown to us. As for the feminine, it's not like Catholics think God is a man (and I argue from the Catholic point of view, because it's the one I know and don't want to make false generalities). God has both male and female attributes, although God is neither. Like many other things in society, the male terminology is used. If there was some easier way to refer to God, other than He, I personally would. But old habits die hard.

Do saints have little statues and such? Sure. So do presidents and the like, and yet I doubt if anyone goes to the Lincoln Memorial because they think that he was a god. Well, maybe some do, who knows, but I would consider that just as ridiculous as anyone who thinks a saint is a god. They were actual people, and good role models. And thus we look to them as such, and hope that they can help us, like our friends on earth, pray to God.

Why does Jesus have a pagan birthday? Easy way to wipe out pagan celebrations. Not the way I would have done it, but a nice way to get former pagans to celebrate his birth.

The mass in no way resembles celebrations of Dionysus to anyone seriously thinking about it. The Church would never condone eating people. However, if God commands us to eat of his flesh and drink his blood, who am I to disagree. Especially since only God could command such a thing. Although next time I am having a drunken orgy or something, I'll be sure to remember just how wrong I was.

As for the last point, I don't have time to read up on Zoroastrinism, so I will get back to it later.

And I am hardly offended. People have different beliefs, and I no more think I am going to convert someone to my own, than I think they will convert me to theirs.

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

jeffbdot — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:34:24 GMT

Leave it to a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals thumb-twiddlers to beat something into the ground and suck any iota of fun out of it. My wife and I took our seven-yr old to see the movie - we laughed, ate hot dogs and popcorn, and left and played at the park. Good times. Oh wait. The movie had holes in the plot. Sorry, forgot it was marketed as an epic Oscar candidate. Hey, lets start a thread on Beerfest next.

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

tsedek — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:38:13 GMT

"Now, if you could expand on what you mean exactly by "mainstream Christianity".

Mainstream, as opposed to Unitarian or JW or the much older Ebionite or Arian. Broadly; Trinitarian/Polytheistic, antinomian, and vicarious in the method of salvation. I use the term "mainstream" in respect for some of my friends who consider themselves Christian yet don't buy the Greek Pagan elements of the child of Constantine.

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

FBH — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:55:09 GMT

It seems odd to me that literally any movie that deals with a Biblical plot, idea, character, issue, etc., is immediately "controversial", or in this case, automatically bad. Critics are for the most part too sophisticated and elitist to be bothered with a loosely-Biblical movie. So, in effect the joke is on the critics, as usual...

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

bubbuh — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 07:27:39 GMT

Perhaps you should take the time to use a dictionary. The opposite of faith is unbelief, mistrust, doubt, and uncertainty. Apologies to no one.

As for the holy cannibalism so like, but much more civilized than the Dionysian rites of yore, more Christians than not believe in transubstantiation. The wikipedia covers it nicely.

When it comes to the childishness of paganism, Christian writers from Theophilus to Dante to Charles Benjamin Newcomb, not to mention oh so many protestant missionaries carrying the white man's burden these last two centuries, have commented on that very thing using those same terms. In these politically correct days, perhaps, what you object to is noticing that another's religious practice is more prone to using less sophisticated methodologies. Admittedly, transubstantiation is slicker than actually killing something and sharing it out; but, the principle is the same.

The derivations of Christianity are increasingly well documented. I mentioned some in a post earlier in this thread. For a very interesting take on them, I would recommend King Jesus by Robert Graves. one might also look at his The Greek Myths and The Hebrew Myths though a little digging will find new books as well.

It's usually better to be clear than clever.

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

Opa1 — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 06:21:37 GMT

tsedek wrote:

"...and although it may be uncomfortable for our Christian friends to play on a level field, it will be good practice for you and give you an idea of why people who haven't been raised in your mythos find mainstream Christianity to be childish and somewhat primitive and very much a derivitive faith based on Pagan mystery cults and ideas and having little to do with Judaism or its Egyptian antecedents."

Please wean yourself away from your obviously well-thumbed Thesaurus for just a second; few things are more irritating than when people think that adopting certain words over more straight-forward (and, therefore, presumably inadequate) ones lends an authorative, erudite air. It doesn't and you know what I'm talking about. End of discussion.

Now, if you could expand on what you mean exactly by "mainstream Christianity". Episcopalian? Unitarian? Roman Catholicism? Anglican? I know, as a relatively non-practising Protestant, that practise of 'flesh eating' is strictly symbolism manifest. And when did Pagan beliefs become childish? And 'derivitive' faiths?? You write that as if that was an abnormality. Be careful, my friend, you sound fairly zealous in your condemnation of 'other' beliefs. Obnoxious; yes. Arrogantly misguided; definitely. Try to keep this in mind: The opposite of faith is certainty, think about it. (Apologies to Anne Lamott)

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

bubbuh — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:27:22 GMT

Sssh, No hints from the peanut gallery!

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

tsedek — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 02:50:12 GMT

"Which part of his three natures expresses the feminine so active in what is largely a biological duality here on earth?"

The fourth, Asherah. As I remember Judea went straight to Sheol when Asherah was pitched out of Temple. Even seen through the eyes of the Deuteronomist and his monotheistic followers, removing G*d's Wife was not a wise move.

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

bubbuh — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:34:04 GMT

Dear Snuffles,

If your god has three natures, why not four? Which part of his three natures expresses the feminine so active in what is largely a biological duality here on earth? If your god is a unity, why split it up? The jews don't. Neither do the Muslims. Come to think of it, the Mormons don't either or the Jehovah's Witnesses or quite few other Christian sects. In fact, neither did many early Christians who often were killed by for their dissent. Assert your monotheism all you like; but, the rest of us can count. Try here for some non-mysterious definitions of the kinds of theisms. Scroll a bit down the page and you'll find them.

Does one pray to saints in Catholicism? Do saints have their own little alters, a statue and sets of votive candles at which one prays? Why, yes, I believe they do. Again, nomenclature is of no importance compared to activity.

Why does Jesus happen to have the same birthday as Mithra, Sol-Invictus, and Attis. among others? Why does his story so resemble these others?

Why do Christian rites more closely resemble those of Dionysus, albeit in a more civilized fashion, than Jewish worship?

Why does Christian theology more closely resemble Zoroastrianism than Judaism?

If you want to be offended, perhaps, you should start with those who prepared you so poorly to answer these questions.

Your objections are rather like Monty Python's Dead Parrot routine. You may assert that the parrot ts just resting. However, any who care to examine the bird will quickly determine that it is "bleeding deceased."

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

Heleva — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:49:20 GMT

I take contention with the claim that the xtian demi-deity actually existed when there is no evidence to support that. Furthermore the fiction sorounding the xtian demi-deitie's supposed linage is bass ackwards too. If xtains were more willing to admit that it is a philosophical mythological character I would probably respect them more.

Also, unless a Jew converted to Catholacism there are very few jewish roots and the Church was and has always been rather anti-semetic. Not much embracing there except from the rare individual.

Re: When did Plotz become so whiney?

Thomas Paine — Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:41:55 GMT

Speaking for myself, I don't mean to be especially singeling out the Catholic Church for attack -- or Christianity in general. I am not a Christian, although I was raised as one, and many of my friends are (one is a Catholic priest).

Some of us are perhaps inclined to a negative response to Christian posters as a learned response to a couple of aggressive, dogmatic evangelicals who regularly post here.

I think many of us would welcome the opportunity to have an articulate Catholic perspective on many of the issues we tackle here.