Fashion

Re: Why They Hate Us

Maggie Porter — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 07:53:37 GMT

Wow. Yes.

You got it. But I wouldn't say hate really. Muslims don't really hate Americans so much as they hate "America". The ideology called Americana which has resulted in so called individual freedoms gone haywire.

But yes....you stated our case eloquently. Problem is, I'm an American. Oops. And in the future there will be more Americans who see the truth of this situation and follow Islam willingly.

As opposed to the majority of those practicing American Surrealism and follow Islam UNWILLINGLY by suffering the consequences of not following it willingly i.e. rampant everything you stated above.

You cannot escape the natural law of Islam any more than a fish can climb a tree. That is the notion of submission in a nutshell.

Salaams

http://carmenisacat.blogspot.com/

Re: Re you sure of that?

doobie3424 — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 03:05:50 GMT

I think that you are a progressive insted of a thinker..of course they hate us for the reasons you gave but...what it all boils down to is that these are the reasons today. Suppose for a moment that the US didnot have any connection to any other country....we all just stayed home in our Christian Communities, went to work and didnt bother anyone.....They

would still hate us because we are not Muslim and if it were not that (assuming the world was Muslim) They would hate us because we were not the same sect of Muslim. They would still want to kill us. So, the point is that we can still do good in this world....support Isreal and every other country that needs support (I am not speaking of financial support) but the support one would give to a neigbor having a bad time for what ever reason. Just standing up and stating that "I agree with your position and your right to be...." Makes no difference. They will take your help, your money, your everything and still want you dead as long as there is someone to take your place in the support chain.

Nothing about

Fritz Gerlich — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 00:52:38 GMT

1. the long history of domination/colonization of Muslim parts of the world by Europe and its offshoots

2. the Muslim precept of rule by the faithful, which has yielded such disappointing results in modern times

3. the chronic technological and economic inferiority of Muslim nations compared not just to the West but to Asia, even to the global average

4. the failure of Muslim ideology and culture to develop decentralized (i.e., fragmented) models of power that were largely responsible for the West's development of the concept of tolerance

5. the failure of Muslim (specifically Arab) culture to develop a concept of the individual emphasizing interiority and authenticity over honor and domination of others, which leaves Arab men with few psychological resources when bested in competition or shown to be wrong in argument (this in turn has a lot to do with the subjugation of women in Muslim societies)

6. the historical association of military conquest with the truth of doctrine, as demonstrated in Islam's formative period, so that even today military victory is construed as divine validation

7. the long tradition of scholasticism that kept Muslim intellectual life too ingrown to seek foreign influences

8. a commercial tradition that remained almost exclusively mercantile instead of developing agricultural and industrial branches (which in turn had a lot to do with development of science and technology in the West)

9. the failure of Muslim social and political thought to develop a concept of society as a single entity for which government is responsible; in Islam, society is a collection of entities divided along religio-ethnic lines

10. the crippling idolization of the Q'uran (and the Arabic language) and the gradual substitution of taqlid (emulation) for ijtihad (inquiry) as fixed standards for Muslim intellectual achievement, as opposed to the polyglot tradition of the West and its religious heterogeneity from the late Middle Ages on

Re: Why They Hate Us

pineapple1012 — Sun, 02 Sep 2007 23:10:07 GMT

EarlyBird. . .

Are you really writing about "why they hate us" or why YOU hate us? Your list of perceived sins of contemporary American culture seems pretty much the list I would expect from a stereotypical, card-carrying member of the religious right. So maybe the issue lies not with Islam, but with fundamentalism of any sort.

Many of the things you list are awful (kids bringing guns to school, hyper sexualized little girls), but I think that those things don't really have a direct correlation to other things you mention (like pizza hut, rap music and gay pride parades). Also, some of the things you mention could directly help to minimize other things in your list (I know from personal experience from friends who had attended a tiny Christian high school that LACK of sex ed leads to more broken families, unwanted pregnancies and unrecognized STDS than offering condoms in public schools. High school kids have been sexually active for years, that's not really a contemporary issue.) And while I'm annoyed as anyone else by bad attitudes, there's something to be said for teaching our kids to speak their minds, as opposed to encouraging them to be mindless little, authority beholden automatons.

Also, you say that maybe if we, as Americans, were as gung-ho about exporting art, music, beauty and intellect as we were about exporting crass pop culture, we'd be more popular. While I disagree with that whole heartedly, I'd like to talk about narrower definitions for a second. . .I agree a lot of pop culture (American and otherwise. . .I lived in England for several months and had the grand misfortune of witnessing Shilpa Shetty and Jade Goody duke it out on Celebrity Big Brother) is utter crap. Girls Gone Wild makes me a bit embarrassed to be a human being, much less an American. But I wonder if you and I would hold the same definitions of "art". To throw an example, did you see American Beauty? It has a high instance of sexualized teenagers, masturbation, homosexuality and pretty shocking violence. But I'd say it's one of the better examples of American art in the last twenty or so years. Or, if that's too cinematic a reference, what about Othello? You have an older man seducing a younger woman, marrying her without her father's permission, an awful lot of raunchy sex talk, bloody sword fights, heavy drinking, and it all ends with a pretty dreadful on-stage strangulation. Does that still fit the definition of Art? It's not really any better than anything you'd see on The Sopranos.

I guess my point is, who gets to decide what is worthy of being produced? The minute you pick a group, it's censorship.

Re: Why They Hate Us

EarlyBird — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 17:04:14 GMT

"The writer might benefit from some travel, if not to other countries, at least to another county."

Ahem...if the "writer" in question is me, I'll let you know that I'm well traveled throughout Europe, Asia, the Pacific and South America and it is direct feedback on our popular culture that informs a lot of my opinions on this issue.

Re: Why They Hate Us

knicknaime — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:46:15 GMT

Europeans? I wore dress slacks and sports coat as a tourist to respect what I had read about European fashion sensibilities, only to discover that both men and women in many cities in France and Italy prefer tight jeans. In Venice, the directions I was given to a concert in a sixteenth century church included "take a left at MacDonald's".

European youth want to dress like Americans, dance like Americans, listen to American music, eat American food, and rot their teeth with American soda pop.

The writer might benefit from some travel, if not to other countries, at least to another county.

Re: So what you're saying is

EarlyBird — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:39:24 GMT

"...although my mother would tell you that hair is a renewable resource."

Not at my age it isn't!

Re: So what you're saying is

MessyONE — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:41:29 GMT

From what I can see, the kids have grown up to be eminently more sensible than their lineage (on both sides) would suggest. Also, having once had a pink and white brush cut, I can't really talk - although my mother would tell you that hair is a renewable resource. ;-)

I was just speculating that conservative twaddle knows no religious boundaries.

Re: That's simply not true.

EarlyBird — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:15:50 GMT

Not a lot to argue with Isonomist. I don't think anything you wrote really contradicts much that I wrote, it only adds to it. I think you're right: they at once are transfixed by and repulsed by our culture.

I agree also that simply being the Big Man on Campus creates jealousy around the globe, and being non-Muslim adds a lot more to it in the Muslim world.

Are you saying, however, my point that our vulgar and ubiquitous culture creates hatred around the world is entirely wrong? You think I am 100% off base? Doesn't it just make some gut sense to you?

I find this interesting:

"When you saw the WTC on fire, did you think, oh, that's the only tower they blew up! It was only Al Qaida, not all Muslims!"

Actually, I did. I have not grown suspicious Islam in general frankly but for the years since then, when I realize how many Muslims are at best sympathetic to Osama bin Laden and how little outrage there is when Muslims commit mass murder in the name of Allah. I think most Muslims really believe it's not all that bad. I have finally discovered how sick so many Muslims and Muslim societies are. I didn't appreciate at the time of 9/11/01 how backwards the Muslim world is globally speaking.

That's simply not true.

Isonomist — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:03:43 GMT

"If we were just as big and in the rest of the world's face, but exporting art and beauty and intellect, they would not hate us."

A nice fantasy, perhaps, but not true at all. There will always be people who hate whoever has power, even if it's a benevolent person (like Ghandi, Martin Luther King, parents, etc). As long as the US is the lone superpower, we are going to be the target of every group vying for power, and every country whose people feel insecure about their place in the world. Pick on the biggest guy in the room, just like at school. But none of them are really any better, and Al Qaida and other groups are hardly in a moral position to judge America. They hate us because they don't rule us, and they will continue to fight us until they do rule us, or until they are convinced they can't beat us, or until they are all gone. That simple. Nothing to do with whether we're happy christian lovemongers or not.

You can't possibly think that your "the only homes we've bombed" paragraph mimics what Middle Eastern people think when they see Iraq on fire, or Afghanistan, or the West Bank, or Lebanon (yes, many blame us for Israel's actions). When you saw the WTC on fire, did you think, oh, that's the only tower they blew up! It was only Al Qaida, not all Muslims! And they gave us our numeric system and the number zero, which makes it possible to have computers and the Internet! And oil! So it's ok!

As for the Europeans, oh please. The ones who hate us are just jealous. Most Western Europeans think we're too old fashioned and prudish (for example, France, the Netherlands and Germany).

I am aware of the polls that say Muslim individuals dislike us, but the reason they hate and fear our culture is that they believe we are trying to take them over. They are plenty happy to log on the Internet and fantasize about American girls. Beating up America over what girls post in Myspace makes no sense: have you seen what's on some Dutch and German sites? That'd make you buy a burka.

America could be remade today in the very image you think it should have, and the people who hate us will still hate us -- Muslims because we are not Muslim,

Re: So what you're saying is

GLM — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:55:37 GMT

Which Republicans, Messy? It's pretty obvious what side of this cultural divide Shrub's daughters come down on...

Re: Re you sure of that?

EarlyBird — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:50:51 GMT

You miss the polls which tell us, directly, that they hate and fear our culture. Funny, but the only homes we've bombed have been in Iraq to undo an Iraqi dictatorship and ones in Afghanistan to undo another tyranny. And we've saved a lot of Muslims lives too, in Kuwait, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and attempted to do so in Somalia. So you would think that would count for something.

And I'm not discounting any of the complaints about our foreign policy either. I just think that underneath it all, they far more worried that they will be absorbed by the big American maw that anything else. The average Muslim is far more conservative than the average Southern Baptist. They are simply horrified that they will find their girls with a My Space page showing their twats.

Listen, back to the Europeans, who are hardly conservatives. Even they hate and fear our culture for how loud and ugly it is.

If we were just as big and in the rest of the world's face, but exporting art and beauty and intellect, they would not hate us.

Re: Why They Hate Us

EarlyBird — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:43:18 GMT

Sam, I think it's a silly statement when people like President Bush say, "They hate us for our freedoms," as if the mere fact of being free would bother other countries.

No, I think that in the Muslim world in particular, they hate what we have chosen to do with our freedoms. The level of ugliness, debauchery, cheapness, celebrity idolization, Britney Spears and all that rest. But they are particularly perturbed because by virtue of global media and capitalism (two things I am very much for by the way), we have bled into their communities.

I would not say we have "forced" ourselves into their societies or imposed anything on them. We have seduced them. Like you mention, they can't take their eyes off of it. They are both thrilled by it, and hate it. They know our culture is junk food that will rot them if they consume too much, but it tastes so good. (It's how it has grabbed hold inside America for that matter. We were'nt always like this folks.)

If we were legally free but chose to live by a strict Muslim code (as Americans can and many do), and exported that, they might have other problems with it, but they would not have at least the same problems they do now. Instead we're exporting thong underwear for pre-pubscent girls and gangsta rap.

Re: So what you're saying is

EarlyBird — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:35:42 GMT

What I'm saying is that American culture has become pretty ugly, and it has spread around the world via capitalism in ways that make others feel very resentful of it. People in very conservative societies not only hate it, they fear being absorbed by it.

If you want to add to that a sense that Americans are too focused on themselves, go for it.

Re you sure of that?

Isonomist — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:12:40 GMT

I'd appreciate it if you'd provide sources for your claims, from actual Arabs. My point: every source I've seen for "why they hate us" has been from a christian who actually is the one who hates those things. I'm not defending those aspects of American culture, but it's useless to claim that they hate us because of how our daughters dress. Those who hate us, hate us because we bomb their homes, support Israel, and aren't Muslims of the sect they belong to.