Fighting Words

Re: If only Nixon had locked up the Japanese.......

nominalize — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 07:52:10 GMT

OutsideLookingIn:

You're right to mythbust the "good war" myths that have been built up over the two most important conflicts our country has faced since independence was assured. To answer the question about why we fought the Nazis: We declared war on Germany in WW2 after it declared war on us (Dec. 11, I think, 1941) under the terms of its alliance with Japan, which we declared war on (December 8) after their suprise attack on Pearl Harbor.

Lincoln's goal in the Civil War was to preserve the Union, and I think in hindsight he did well to do so. While the U.S. would have survived in the short term without the seceding states, the precedent would have been set for other states to leave over who knows what--- notably the four slave states that did not secede. Thinking about other divisive issues in our history since then, we could be certain that the U.S. would not exist in 2009, except perhaps as a rump-state alliance.

Lincoln did suspend habeas corpus. He also instituted our first draft and supported his generals' "scorched earth" campaigns. It's also clear that no law prohibited the Confederate states from seceding. Indeed, the war itself began when CSA forces attacked a US Army fort (inside Confederate territory). As for the Emancipation Proclamation, it is a standard law of war that an occupying invader has jurisdiction over the territory it occupies. The fact that it only applied to rebel territory, and that it only came into effect many months after its signing, shows that its main goal was to punish the Confederacy, not to push for freedom.

It's not just the leaders' misdeeds we've swept under the rug... it's the soldiers' war crimes as well--- the pillaging, rape, murder, and prisoner mistreatment. These weren't systematic like they were in the Japanese Army, but they were widespread, as you might expect if you gave a million young men guns and let them loose. If only 1% in that million commit an atrocity, you've still got 10,000 atrocities.

As for the government-controlled education... the myths that arose from the Civil War and World War 2 were not government creations, but societal ones. It only makes sense that a country's education system--- public or private--- reflect the values of that country's society. For instance, the losing myth of the Civil War, the noble lost cause, was certainly not created by government. No matter what these myths' origins are, they can be damaging. A good bit of the unpopularity of the Vietnam war stemmed from comparing it to the "good" war the previous generation had fought.

Re: If only Nixon had locked up the Japanese.......

OutsideLookingIn — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:26:45 GMT

Why stop there? Why not go after all of the "bad people" on the planet? Why were these the so-called good wars but anytime the same standard is applied to Saddam Hussein we get the old argument that he was no threat to us? Which I wholeheartedly agree with. But the standard must be applied the same way across the board. Why did we fight the Nazis? They didn't attack us, and we didn't know all the bad shit they were into until after the fact. Why don't we attack the Sudanese, they've been murdering and raping for years now. Why not the Soviet Union? They made the Nazis look like pussycats with all the people they wasted. Why not China? How many cases of modern-day slavery need to be uncovered in that country before we invade. Could it possibly be that BS reasons for these wars have been cooked up and served to you by the government-controlled propaganda centers/educational system so you don't question how your government built its empire?

Re: If only Nixon had locked up the Japanese.......

flashlight — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 21:50:58 GMT

Outsidelookin really hates the presidents who took the fight to the Nazis and slave-owners.

Coincidence?

Re: If only Nixon had locked up the Japanese.......

OutsideLookingIn — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:50:14 GMT

I am not a Republican. Not everyone who is a conservative thinker is a Republican. I try to apply libertarian principles to political questions because I don't believe in anyone opposing their will on others. I can't name a president we had in the past 100 years that I approve of. And obviously I don't claim Lincoln. I can't speak to who reveres who more or less than other people. Actually one of the curious things about all of the presidential rankings is they don't largely differ between the political parties. They seem mirror what is taught in school. Lincoln and FDR always fall in the top three or five. Harding and Nixon are always at the bottom. But what does anyone actually know about Harding? I'll guarantee they don't know about the 1920-21 recession that only lasted a matter of months because the Harding administration kept its hands off and let it run its course. Remember this was less than 10 years prior to the Crash of '29 and subsequent Depression, which was the most protracted in history at the same time that it was the most regulated by the government. The New Deal was a disaster, and it's never called out for what it was. A fascist experiment that mirrored what was going on in Germany and Italy at the time. Sounds kinda like what's going on right now actually.

Re: What you fail to consider, you pathetic imbecile...

OutsideLookingIn — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:36:38 GMT

The United States didn't cease to exist because 11 states decided to form their own country. What did cease to exist was the massive tax revenue that was provided by the Southern states in the form of tariffs paid for manufacturing goods from Europe, among other things. In Lincoln's first inauguration address he stated in a nutshell that he would not oppose slavery where it was already established as long as the Southern states continued to pay the tariff, which was enacted by the way to protect the factories in the North from having to compete with those in Europe. Slavery didn't become the issue until the war was already into its second year and was becoming increasingly unpopular at home. That's when the Emancipation Proclamation was issued, and then what did that crusader of freedom do? He only freed the slaves in the Confederacy, over which he had no jurisdiction. Gutsy move there. And seeing how the Constitution wasn't amended until after his death, freeing the slaves that were outside his jurisdiction was the only act of freedom this man ever committed in his entire administration.

Re: If only Nixon had

blahblahblahs — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:17:59 GMT

hey OutsideLookinUpyer ass

People are right that Nixon was horrible, but for the wrong reasons.

OH shut the F--k up already

What you fail to consider, you pathetic imbecile...

Mmmmm — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:53:04 GMT

...is that both Lincoln and FDR faced grave, existential threats to the very existence of the U.S.

Re: If only Nixon had locked up the Japanese.......

Mmmmm — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:50:54 GMT

Actually he did mention that. Apparently he's so dumb that he thinks Abe was a Democrat.

Re: If only Nixon had locked up the Japanese.......

Mmmmm — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:49:26 GMT

Articles of Impeachment:

RESOLVED, That Richard M. Nixon, President of the United States, is impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors, and that the following articles of impeachment to be exhibited to the Senate:

ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT EXHIBITED BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN THE NAME OF ITSELF AND OF ALL OF THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AGAINST RICHARD M. NIXON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, IN MAINTENANCE AND SUPPORT OF ITS IMPEACHMENT AGAINST HIM FOR HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANOURS.

Article 1: Obstruction of Justice.

In his conduct of the office of the President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has prevented, obstructed, and impeded the administration of justice, in that: On June 17, 1972, and prior thereto, agents of the Committee for the Re-Election of the President committed unlawful entry of the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee in Washington, District of Columbia, for the purpose of securing political intelligence. Subsequent thereto, Richard M. Nixon, using the powers of his high office, engaged personally and through his subordinates and agents in a course of conduct or plan designed to delay, impede and obstruct investigations of such unlawful entry; to cover up, conceal and protect those responsible and to conceal the existence and scope of other unlawful covert activities. The means used to implement this course of conduct or plan have included one or more of the following:

(1) Making or causing to be made false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States.

(2) Withholding relevant and material evidence or information from lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States.

(3) Approving, condoning, acquiescing in, and counseling witnesses with respect to the giving of false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States and false or misleading testimony in duly instituted judicial and congressional proceedings.

(4) Interfering or endeavoring to interfere with the conduct of investigations by the Department of Justice of the United States, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the office of Watergate Special Prosecution Force and congressional committees.

(5) Approving, condoning, and acquiescing in, the surreptitious payments of substantial sums of money for the purpose of obtaining the silence or influencing the testimony of witnesses, potential witnesses or individuals who participated in such unlawful entry and other illegal activities.

(6) Endeavoring to misuse the Central Intelligence Agency, an agency of the United States.

(7) Disseminating information received from officers of the Department of Justice of the United States to subjects of investigations conducted by lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States for the purpose of aiding and assisting such subjects in their attempts to avoid criminal liability.

(8) Making false or misleading public statements for the purpose of deceiving the people of the United States into believing that a thorough and complete investigation has been conducted with respect to allegation of misconduct on the part of personnel of the Executive Branch of the United States and personnel of the Committee for the Re-Election of the President, and that there was no involvement of such personnel in such misconduct; or

(9) Endeavoring to cause prospective defendants, and individuals duly tried and convicted, to expect favored treatment and consideration in return for their silence or false testimony, or rewarding individuals for their silence or false testimony.

In all of this, Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore Richard M. Nixon, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.

(Approved by a vote of 27-11 by the House Judiciary Committee on Saturday, July 27, 1974.)

Article 2: Abuse of Power.

Using the powers of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in disregard of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has repeatedly engaged in conduct violating the constitutional rights of citizens, imparting the due and proper administration of justice and the conduct of lawful inquiries, or contravening the laws governing agencies of the executive branch and the purposes of these agencies.
This conduct has included one or more of the following:

(1) He has, acting personally and through his subordinated and agents, endeavored to obtain from the Internal Revenue Service, in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens, confidential information contained in income tax returns for purposes not authorized by law, and to cause, in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens, income tax audits or other income tax investigation to be initiated or conducted in a discriminatory manner.

(2) He misused the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Secret Service, and other executive personnel, in violation or disregard of the constitutional rights of citizens, by directing or authorizing such agencies or personnel to conduct or continue electronic surveillance or other investigations for purposes unrelated to national security, the enforcement of laws, or any other lawful function of his office; he did direct, authorize, or permit the use of information obtained thereby for purposes unrelated to national security, the enforcement of laws, or any other lawful function of his office; and he did direct the concealment of certain records made by the Federal Bureau of Investigation of electronic surveillance.

(3) He has, acting personally and through his subordinates and agents, in violation or disregard of the constitutional rights of citizens, authorized and permitted to be maintained a secret investigative unit within the office of the President, financed in part with money derived from campaign contributions to him, which unlawfully utilized the resources of the Central Intelligence Agency, engaged in covert and unlawful activities, and attempted to prejudice the constitutional right of an accused to a fair trial.

(4) He has failed to take care that the laws were faithfully executed by failing to act when he knew or had reason to know that his close subordinates endeavored to impede and frustrate lawful inquiries by duly constituted executive; judicial and legislative entities concerning the unlawful entry into the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee, and the cover-up thereof, and concerning other unlawful activities including those relating to the confirmation of Richard Kleindienst as attorney general of the United States, the electronic surveillance of private citizens, the break-in into the office of Dr. Lewis Fielding, and the campaign financing practices of the Committee to Re-elect the President.

(5) In disregard of the rule of law: he knowingly misused the executive power by interfering with agencies of the executive branch: including the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Criminal Division and the Office of Watergate Special Prosecution Force of the Department of Justice, in violation of his duty to take care that the laws by faithfully executed.

In all of this, Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore Richard M. Nixon, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.

(Approved 28-10 by the House Judiciary Committee on Monday, July 29, 1974.)

Article 3: Contempt of Congress.

In his conduct of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, contrary to his oath faithfully to execute the office of the President of the United States, and to the best of his ability preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, had failed without lawful cause or excuse, to produce papers and things as directed by duly authorized subpoenas issued by the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives, on April 11, 1974, May 15, 1974, May 30, 1974, and June 24, 1974, and willfully disobeyed such subpoenas. The subpoenaed papers and things were deemed necessary by the Committee in order to resolve by direct evidence fundamental, factual questions relating to Presidential direction, knowledge or approval of actions demonstrated by other evidence to be substantial grounds for impeachment of the President. In refusing to produce these papers and things, Richard M. Nixon, substituting his judgement as to what materials were necessary for the inquiry, interposed the powers of the Presidency against the lawful subpoenas of the House of Representatives, thereby assuming to himself functions and judgments necessary to the exercise of the sole power of impeachment vested by Constitution in the House of Representatives.

In all this, Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice, and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore, Richard M. Nixon, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial and removal from office.

Get back on your meds, nutsack

Mmmmm — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:44:39 GMT

Seriously, psychiatric help is covered under most major medical plans. Assuming of course that you have a job, which now that I think of it, seems unlikely.

Re: If only Nixon had locked up the Japanese.......

dantesfurlough — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:58:08 GMT

So, do dems revere FDR any more than rebubs do Lincoln? You do, after all, like to claim you are the party of him? Lincoln managed his own civil rights abuses during the Civil War. But, you don't mention that.

I like Nixon

Arlington — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:55:02 GMT

Well, not really. Almost everyone agrees he was personally loathesome. I like some of the things that happened during his presidency and I wonder if we'll ever be able to evaluate some of the progress we made without puking at the thought that such a horrible man could preside over improvements in civil rights, environmental protection and workplace safety. On a personal level, Nixon's protracted war and the draft forced me to join the military, where I learned some things, grew up a little and subsequently went to school on the GI Bill. So maybe I owe him. Funny how these things work.

Re: If only Nixon had locked up the Japanese.......

irvingchang — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:29:12 GMT

Now instead of being a drive-by liberal that is around long enough to drop a half-baked load of crap on your lawn then take off before anyone can demand they explain themselves, I'm still waiting.

you'll be waiting for a long long time my friend.

Re: If only Nixon had locked up the Japanese.......

Skedaddle — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 07:54:09 GMT

well that was a lot of jibbery juroo! You seem to want me to defend the bad shit that FDR did, but why do I have to? I never said he was the greatest president ever. I'll just say his highs were higher and his lows were down there with the lowest. Why was nixon worse? Cause he got caught duh.lol.

Re: If only Nixon had locked up the Japanese.......

OutsideLookingIn — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 07:39:16 GMT

Seems like you're the one who's deflecting. I posed you with a question you don't want to or aren't equipped to answer. Funny you should mention your "all conservatives deflect" defense to attack me because you can't attack my message (tried-and-true liberal tactic, to shoot the messenger), but if I had a dollar for everytime a liberal took me on and started obfuscating when he realized he bit off more than he could chew, well you know how it goes.

So let's talk about Nixon. I'm not making excuses for Nixon. But I'd be hard-pressed to find a more beaten dead horse than Nixon. People are right that Nixon was horrible, but for the wrong reasons. Watergate was always a non-issue. It was the equivalent of the Clinton impeachment, a powerful opposition Congress finally found an issue that would stick. The guy who came out as Deep Throat a couple years ago admitted he only blew the whistle on Nixon because he was pissed he got passed over for promotion. The guy was running his own break-in operations independent of the White House! Nixon sucked because he's the president that took us the rest of the way off the gold standard (which was started by liberal darling FDR) and his so-called "ground-breaking" trip to China laid the groundwork for the outsourcing of our manufacturing base that has crippled our economy today. He was another who ran on the old "I swear I'll end the war" platform that made an encore performance last year, then rolled up his sleeves and set out to expand the war once he was safely elected.

Was that enough about Nixon for you? See I can point out the faults with "my" presidents. Now instead of being a drive-by liberal that is around long enough to drop a half-baked load of crap on your lawn then take off before anyone can demand they explain themselves, I'm still waiting. Why is it right that men like Lincoln and FDR occupy the top spots on the list when they wrote the book on the crap people say Bush and Nixon are using to ruin our country? The reason why you haven't answered this question is because you can't. You had probably never heard of the Copperheads and Vallandingham before today. I'm sure you know about the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo (this single event killed more people than BOTH atomic bombings together) but you never connected the dots back to FDR because the system that educated you would never tar a Marxist kindred spirit like FDR with that kind of brush. Learn to think outside the box.