duck:

Is is that really all that hard to imagine that people without a welfare state would buy insurance and join social, professional and community groups to manage risks and be there to help others in need? I do these things even today. Nothing would stop people from helping each other voluntarily. To pretend that a system using the force of the state to penalize those who achieve to benefit those who can't or won't provide for themselves is somehow morally superior to a system based on individual liberty and personal responsibility is wrong.

This seems to be where the discussion breaks down. If the rights of the individual are not paramount, any "social good" popular with enough people will trump the rights of those designated to be sacrificed to that goal. As I indicated earlier, small "L" libertarians get grief from both the left and the right. Both sides pretend to be the champions of individual rights but neither is willing to look honestly at the restrictions they support. The left opposes freedom to contract and other economic liberties. The right oppose many social liberties.

On the point of abortion, I don't know whether that debate fits neatly into this discussion. Either one believes a person and the rights of the person begin at birth or at some other point and affords the protections of those rights to the fetus/baby at the time the rights vest. Rand chose birth. Others choose other points in time.

This demonstrates my point that Rand and "Randies" are simple minded. Does the "paramount" right of the individual always trump the right of the group? Can I dump motor oil in our drinking water if it easier than recycling it? Do you think "Liberals" are uninterested in individual rights Is government by definition non consensual if even one person disagrees with the decision of the rest? Whole groups have no right to limit an individuals actions but a fertilized embryo trumps all. The "Randies" historical ignorance is appalling and their philosophical inconsistency blatant. Rand chose the individual right to abortion, not birth as you claim.