There were no straw men in my arguments--these are REAL PEOPLE. You should meet some someday and realize who you step on to make your uberbucks.

My points are no less valid than yours and I neednt only respond to your points as others are in this string too (and you wonder where the class warfare mentality has to come from).

So as I said:

You claim if we dont like what goes on on Wall Street all we need to do is sell our shares or take controlling interest in the company--both of course are bullshit since only rich people have these options--just how can a poor person sell what he/she does not own and couldnt really own enough of to matter (100 shares sold no one cares) and of course buying controlling interest is impossible. You say the corporate types dont get a veto in government......you could run for office couldnt you? And do you not influence elections with your money via donations? The lack of control over the actions and or misdeeds of corporate America is what only the government can address on behalf of those not in a financially blessed condition because few of us can hope to control their actions EXCEPT through the actions of our government which is there to act in our mutual interests as a reward for supporting democracy. So yes, the government can and should step in when corporations are acting against the interests of the population.

I had mentioned McCain and his financial disaster pal Phil Gramm for a reason. The deregulation they pushed for hard is the main culprit in our current financial disaster, although hardly his only financial misstep.

As Paul Rockwell said:

"John McCain bears grave responsibility for the financial anarchy of our times. For twenty-seven years, through debt-producing Reagonomics -- especially deregulation -- he promoted corporate permissiveness, a culture that included risky speculation, debt-financed mergers, leveraged buy-outs, export of American jobs, quick profit-taking, and the inevitable cry from Wall Street for public bailouts when the casino goes broke."

Among McCains financial sins:

1-Garn-St.Germain Act, which deregulated the savings and loan industry. What was once only for home ownership was opened up to speculation and theft.

2-The Keating Five Scandal--McCain was DIRECTLY involved. "“I have never been asked until this meeting with you and your colleagues -- by any United States Senator -- to withdraw a regulation for any reason"--Edwin Gray, Chariman of the Federal Home Loan Bank Board.

3-1998 the financial services industry successfully pressured Congress to repeal the Glass-Steagall Act, a New Deal statute that separated commercial banking, investment bonds, and insurance. Glass-Steagall reduced the risk of bank failures.

4-$34,000 from Enron to Phil Gramm in donations.

I also made it a point to bring up the straw man the right always points to--Fannie and Freddie. Even as they ignored all the deregulation going on in the financial industry the right pointed to the one thing the dems did which actually helped Bush with his "ownership society" claims--the effort to extend ownership of property to minorities by (audible gasp here) letting them purchase property in economically depressed areas under current loan guidelines (in other words no special favors--they had to meet all the usual tests given to any other applicant).

And lastly, "class warfare" is a rather pathetic way to ignore the reality that certain individuals see themselves above basic common sense ethics and rules at the expense of their fellow citizens. Just because you can legally rob investors and tax payers under a certain current set of laws doesnt mean you should do it. When Karl Marx wrote about his concepts of workers vs capitalists he envisioned just the kind of situation we have today--that doesnt mean I support his beliefs either--I believe very much in capitalism--but I also know that people like you are what gave Marx street cred.