Part of this thread that I've observed is that we're talking self-definition as a nice guy, or decent man or whatever. If women are not attracted to you, why presume it's something wrong with women as a group? Are you really who you believe youself to be?

That's at least as reasonable a theory as the one that maintains that women don't know what attracts them.... true for some women some of the time, of course, just like any generalization.

I believe that abuse is too frequent, to complex and too awful to dismiss with casual banalities about "what women want." Let's turn the tables and ask what the hell the abuser wants. Let's focus on why men can't fix other men's behavior after generation after generation of holding the power.

I'll happily admit that given the prospect of choosing among assholes, I'll choose the goodlooking, sexy one. But give me a real choice.... I did, my second marriage was to a great, brilliant, loving, gentle man who wasn't macho or showy. His sense of humor alone, though, was worth the supposed lack of romance-hero characteristics.

Not one bit of human relationships is simple and we should be reveling in the complexities instead of bemoaning how hard it is to understand each other.