...I have little patients.

So you're a pediatrician? ...sorry. Anyway, back to the discussion.

...What is to be done about those of us who don't BELIEVE in evolutionary biology?

Aren't you facing this right now, right here in our exchange? What is your solution besides to tell me that I am wrong not to believe in evolutionary biology?

I'm not necessarily agreeing with Ru, here. I honestly don't know what he/she was trying to get at with the evolutionary biology post. But to your larger point... sure, maybe you're too stubborn to change your mind on anything. Maybe this discussion is pointless. But maybe someone reading it is less entrenched than you and changed their mind about something. Yeah, probably not, but the truth usually wins out eventually. How many Christians out there still believe the sun revolves aroudn the earth. Hell, at least where I'm from, most churchgoing Christians even believe that evolution is real. I don't claim to understand how they reconcile this with thier beliefs, but whatever. They do it because eventually the truth becomes unavoidable and they'll look stupid if they don't accept it.

It's the same thing with your conservative buggaboo muslim terrorist on our doorstep trying to kill us. Sure, we're not going to change this guy's mind, but given the right conditions, cultures can change and the environment that creates folks like this won't be around anymore.

The dangerous thing is precisely that the illusions of liberalism and scientism are possible only under certain special conditions and that we have now a surplus of citizens who mistakenly believe that these special conditions, the conditions under which we now exist, are somehow natural, normal, self-creating or self-sustaining.

No, it's not natural, self-creating or self-sustaining. We created it. We sustain it. Civilization as we know it is an extremely complex system and yes, it's possible it could break. But the nice thing about this giant machine is that there is plenty of redundancy (no one piece is so important it can't be replaced) and it has the ability to remake itself constantly in the face of changing conditions.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Fragility increases in proportion to the advance of civilization. We, i.e. humanity, are further out on a limb than ever. There is nothing natural, given. necessary or self-perpetuating about any of it.

This is just plain wrong. Yes, we've created weapons that can destroy us. But we've also developed ways to control the natural world. You really think we're better off if we go back to traditional ways and eschew science. Natural does not mean better. Extinction is a natural process. Nothing is self-perpetuating and self-sustaining in the long run.

Look at how people actually behave here and elsewhere when their ideas are challenged and their will to power thwarted. Can anyone say there is grounds for optimism after reading even a single thread like this?

Really? Internet flamewars and tv pundits are your evidence for the downfall of civilization? Sure, there's planty of pettiness and stupidity, but c'mon. I really don't think this is representative of society as a whole or even representative of the people that post. Places like this are where people come to get their outrage on and let off steam. The Fray is not a voting booth or a Senate meeting.

I applaud the sentiment - but I cannot bring myself to believe we are the least bit closer than we have ever been to the reign of perpetual peace. We have managed, against all odds and perhaps without even intending it, to establish an interlude of sorts in which to catch our collective breath. This has only permitted time and opportunity re-armament and the drafting of plans for the next campaign, one which is going to make all of the previous ones look like child's play.

I've tried, but I still don't understand how you're connnecting your (imho unwarranted) pessimism for the fate of humanity and your political comments. You trash liberalism, but where is the argument for something else? You trash science, but where does this "wisdom" you talked about come from? You argue against liberalism and science, but argue for nothing.