ms

When you say the situation in Iraq is a sure sign of defeat

I didn't say situation - I said penning is a sign of defeat for those doing the penning.

We are penning up people. We desegrate here and fence them up there. We decry the penning when others do it but it's ok if it's our tactic. Bullshit. Go and get yourself penned up for a few years and let me know what you think of it then.

The Iraq Army is vastly improved. They think they are improved so much they do not need us.

this is as good as its getting so lets just get out now".

It is as good as it is going to get - for us.

When do we stop framing this as what is best for us, for our needs, for our goals, for our pride, for our ego...no one matters now but the Iraqi's. Their goals and sovereignty are all that is left - that actually matters.