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Re: Really who is to know what the truth is
by shematwater

While I understand much of what you are saying, I cannot agree with it.

The conclusion I reached was this: Being a perfect man, like Adam was created, he had the potential to sin. Satan would not have bothered tempting Jesus, if it was not possible for him to succeed.

Jesus Christ was incapable of sin, and was a God while in the Flesh. Satan tempted him because Satan does not understand all things concerning the Father's plan, so he believed (or rather hoped) that he could succeed. In Satan's mind, he had fallen so Jesus could also fall. This was not, nor is it true.

Soul for soul was required - Jehovah was the only one, at that time, who had immortality - the inability to die. Adam was a man not a God - a creation of God. The ransom payment had to be of equal value - eye for eye - tooth for tooth - life for life. Jehovah, as the creator, would have been in excess of the price/payment.

Would you not think that Satan would have surely taken control in the heavens had Jehovah been here on earth serving as the ransom?

I know you will disagree, but let me explain my opinions. God the Father is not Jehovah, but is called Elohiem. He was the only one that had an immortal body, but both he and his son (Jesus or Jehovah) were gods. So, with Jehovah on earth and not in Heaven Satan was still kept in his place because the Father, or Elohiem, was still in command.

As to the payment, Elohiem could not have done it because he could not have died. Jehovah, though a god, could die and so was the one that fullfilled the atonement.

No, Adam was not destined to sin, that would not make sense. Why would Jehovah lay a command upon the man with a warning of the cessation of life [a gift given by his creator] - if He knew that man was incapable of being obedient? Would that not be cruel on the part of a perfect and just God? That Jehovah would foreordain such a thing that would not only bring death upon Adam, but upon the entire human race?

Yes it was neccessary for Adam to transgress the law, and I always found it rather obvious why God gave the command not to eat the fruit. God loves his children, even Adam. He knew the pain that would come with mortal life, and wanted to spare his children from it. So he gave the command, but he still knew that they not only would, but that they must eat the fruit or the plan could not continue.

Now, to say that it was not in the plan for man to fall is to say that Satan has power to disrupt the plans of God, thus God is not an all knowing God. As we know that God does know everything, we understand that God knew Eve would be tempted and eat the fruit, therefore his plan must have worked with it, therefore it was neccessary.

Under the Law the deliberate murderer could not be ransomed. Adam, by his willful course, brought death on all mankind, he essentially murdered the human race. (Ro 5:12) Therefore, the sacrifice of Jesus could not be applied as a ransom for Adam.

This is where I really have to speak up. Adam was, and is, the greatest man to live on this Earth, except for Jesus Christ. To say that the atonement does not ransom him is to deny the scriptures. The scriptures tell us in 1 timothy 1: 13 that Paul was fogiven because he was ignorant. In Genesis we read that Adam and Eve did not know good from evil, so they were ignorant (they lacked the ability to understand). So, just as Paul recieved forgiveness, Adam and Eve also receive forgiveness.

Since Adam did not have any offspring until after his removal from the garden, when he sinned and was sentenced to death, his offspring or race were all unborn in his loins and so all died with him. (Compare Heb 7:4-10.)

Jesus as a perfect man, “the last Adam” (1Co 15:45), had a race or offspring unborn in his loins, and when he died innocently as a perfect human sacrifice this potential human race died with him.

He had willingly abstained from producing a family of his own by natural procreation. Instead, Jesus uses the authority granted by Jehovah on the basis of his ransom to give life to all those who accept this provision.—1Co 15:45; compare Ro 5:15-17.

This just sounds very wierd, but I won't comment on it now.

So, to me, by passing the test (and actually even greater) that Adam had failed, Christ bought back, for those who reach perfection at the end of the thousand years, the confirmation that they also can prove Satan a liar by standing firm.

Adam never failed any test, because he didn't know he was taking one. (Try giving a six year old a test in quantum physics and see how they do compared a physisist with three doctorits.

I have to go now, so I will post more later.

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