Guys the intellectual masturbation found on this post has been very stimulating, but, alas I must go back to my busy life of actually doing stuff. I mean, seriously, how do you find the time to participate in these discussions (actually mulitple ones on different websites)? Never mind, don't answer the question because I won't be back to read it. I'm not leaving b/c I lost an argument. I still don't think I have, but going on and on about this with people I don't know and will probably never meet is kinda pointless unless you have nothing else to do, and I have other things to do. Ralph7, take your policy positions to your local government or join Ward Connerly's movement. Do something, get involved (maybe you already are and I just don't know it). Even though I disagree with you, the country will be better off if you and all of us did it. Signing off.