Who believes death is the absolute end? You die. They put your in a hole in the ground or they burn you to ash and that's it, that's all she wrote? There is no bright light, no tunnel, no voices ringing in your dead ears, no out-of-body experiences, no watching the family and friends mourn and weep before you're swept off on the wings of angels to purgatory or Heavenly bliss or Hell-fire and damnation? There's nothing. Just full stop. The End.

Who believes that? You're dead and you rot like any other piece of dead meat? All you are is dead meat decomposing, or if your remains are ash in an urn nothing remains once you're scattered to the four winds. There is no soul, no god [or God], no afterlife, nothing that follows death except the absolute silence of non-being. A body that once performed all its bodily functions now lies dead forever and ever. Everything is over and ended. Everything. No joyful reunions in the afterlife, no mysteries uncovered, no great questions answered. Who believes that?

Is it even a function of belief? Is it simply fact? The only way anybody exists after they die is in the memories of their survivors, in photographs, in accounts, in their own testimonials, letters, art works, things they built or did or said, things they performed, recorded, bequeathed to posterity. You die, then that's the end of you. You don't go to Heaven or Hell or any place in between, and all this religious stuff is only bunkum to control you while you live. There are no rewards or punishments, the most evil butcher shares the same fate as the most saintly: both are dead organisms with nowhere to go and no way of going there. Does anyone believe that?

And there are no ghosts either, no poltergeists, spirits, fairies, goblins, paranormalities, no presences of any kind that don't have an organic explanation. All that is the product of the imagination of the living. There is no dod. There is no devil. There's only other people, good people, bad people, healthy people, sick people, intelligent people, idiotic people, gifted people and fucked-up nutjobs, all kinds of people who have one thing in common -- they'll all die and be no more. They'll all vanish and somehow become a part of the earth that once sustained them. But none of them will rise again at the end of days. There is no end of days. Plus, every single one of you reading this will be dead and gone a hundred years from now. Do you believe that?

If you believe all that, then do you also believe there is no proof of anything spiritual? All of the evidence over all the centuries is hogwash. Faith is just a 5-letter word. It means nothing. It's another lie people tell themselves. So, folks spend their entire lives doing good, praying, making sacrifices, helping others, living the summum bonum life only to become nothing at the end of it all. All the preparations were for nought. Then, on the other side, all the evil bastards out to kill and maim and hurt and abuse and exploit and fuck over as many people as they can, they too become nothing at the end of all and they get no punishment for their crimes: The same end awaits both. Doesn't matter what you believe or argue to the contrary. You can't prove any of it. Is that what you believe?

If life has a purpose at all it must surely lie elsewhere, where we've not been looking, but not in preparing for death, maybe only in advancing some portion of our essence, being that building cell towards something collective, organic, holistic, not an individual at all, though you might believe and argue otherwise, just one human speck in a vast human splotch that begins and ends on this one small planet hurtling through space. You don't explore the infinite cosmos after you die. How could you? Rather, you die back into the womb of the very planet that begot you in the first place. That's it, finito, finitude, finality, conclusion, completion of your terrestrial purpose and the end of all your questions that you mistook for something greater, grander than yourself, divinity, transcendence, a soul, god, satan, an afterlife. All of it just shit. Lies you told yourself, or that others forced you to believe. Is that it? Einstein, Shakespeare, Darwin meet the same end in death as Hitler, Manson, Stalin. Is that the way of the world? I'm only asking here.

I'll go further.

I know that.

As for me, the afterlife is in the same box with God and Schrödinger's cat.

The problem is, you don't know the right question. The bigger problem is, comprehending the right question exceeds your design capabilities.

But the more relevant answer is, it doesn't matter. It never mattered. What matters is right now, who I love, what I do, and why. What's offensive: that Einstein, Shakespeare, or Darwin (or anyone else) require a God, or an afterlife, to make what they accomplished meaningful.

Anyone who says they know the answer is completely full of shit. But they're generally full of shit because they don't know, not knowing is scary, and we will weave all manner of things to fill the gaping rent through which our nightmares emerge.

Now today, I'm going to the dentist, because what I know today is that my fucking tooth hurts. Some people believe that the only kind of reinforcement, really, is negative reinforcement - that even what feels like reward is only a small palliation, of the pain that constitutes living. Today, I believe that. Today, my dentist matters. Life has its satisfactions, and its comforts, and occasionally offers dry ribs to crawl into, to keep our metaphysics warm.

Science tells us that we are all made up of stardust.

i'm not dying, I'm going Supernova.

What's offensive: that Einstein, Shakespeare, or Darwin (or anyone else) require a God, or an afterlife, to make what they accomplished meaningful.

Tenacious, why is it offensive? Why does it matter what they required or needed?

I believe that death is the ultimate end. For some reason, like you, I still think it's a good idea for folks to love one another -- even believers....

For some reason, like you, I still think it's a good idea for folks to love one another -- even believers....

On second thought, I might draw the line at jo, JD and Gatewood.... I'll have to meditate on that.

I'll only quibble on a few details:

There are experiential events near-death that can be interpreted as supportive of "crossover" (e.g. bright lights, out-of-body, etc.) but they're purely physiological effects (mis)interpreted by the dying mind and ultimately don't prove anything (but they make a nice story!).

Exceptions abound, but a life spent "doing good", et al, is its own reward. We make our own good and evil and I prefer to be an advocate of the former. There's no hell awaiting afterwards but it seems stupid and counterproductive to create hell on earth in the interim.

Seems perfectly fine to define and pursue "purpose" right now without tying it to what comes after.

... how do you know that?

This guy says that the only way the atoms in your body can have existed is by first being crafted in the furnace of the stars. That's where helium, hydrogen, and lithium were forced to mate and create the rest of the elements that make up us.

and staying there.

Nature tells us that we're just a higher order of that same cyclical process; you're born, you live and you have your "prime" - aging all the while, until you finally die.

But that's too sad to contemplate if that's truly all there is. For one thing, it would mean that I'm well past my prime now, like day lilies that bloomed several weeks ago and while they may be still flourishing, are beginning to show signs that their best days have passed. (ahem)

But it goes beyond wanting to recapture youth or even just to remain significant. why would we have this "consciousness", why are we aware of ourselves and those around us in ways that no other living thing on earth is? Our minds are a fascinating thing, I don't think we've even come close to knowing yet the power of our minds. Things like ESP, premonitions, deja-vu - they happen to everyone -too often to just dismiss or explain away.

I think from time immortal, people have been unable to comprehend death - and the idea of an afterlife to anyone deep in grief, its a salve and yet - its almost as if we're wired to feel that way, that there has got to be something more. So why is that? Even though I can explain all that away too.

I don't believe in "heaven" or hell. I don't believe in angels and devils. I do know there is good and evil in our world now - and that I can choose to go either way. I can still live a happy, moral and fulfilling life without the promise of a God at the end of it all. But let there be something else afterwards. A moving of our consciousness to another place. common sense tells me there isn't. When the brain ceases to function, we lose consciousness. And our consciousness is our spirit - and when our bodies die, it takes away that spirit just as it took away our heartbeat.

Blahblahblah, I know.

Do you know them when you meet them?

go to a pub, and buy yourself something worthwhile.

I will say this - I do wonder why you bothered to write this. Doubt your really interested in any of the responses you've received (including mine).

And I'll say this - it's really spiritual to have read your post and give it a checkmark. You see, talking about "spirit" is just so spiritual. It makes 'em feel good to have checkmarked ya.

Punishments? Bliss?

The same.