This is interesting, I haven't seen this much actual conversation between pro-lifers and pro-choicers in a long time. The pro-choice is starting to admit that some abortions are worse than others, and the pro-lifers are conceding that their viewpoint is not as adamant as they pretend it to be (in the wake of Dr. Tiller's murder).

So, I'm pro-choice because I believe ultimately that the right to choose trumps everything else. However, with that right comes great responsibility. As I get older, I find that I have little patience for those women who perform elective second and third abortions, and those women who want choice without responsibility (that irritates me to no end).

I'm starting to see how Mississippi's approach could be used to find common ground. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to say "let's not make abortion an on-demand procedure". I can agree with a waiting period, and counseling. I can also see prohibiting late term abortions except in the case of where the mother's life is endangered, or the infant has a condition that will not allow it to survive long term. We can also include contraception as a tactic to head off teenage pregnancies before they start.

I just don't want abortion itself to be outlawed, because in the end, we must preserve the right to choose. This means allowing people to choose to sin, and accepting the consequences of that. Without sin, we have no free choice, and without free choice then we are as robots, forever doomed to perform under a set of moral laws that in the absence of opposition become commands without meaning.

counseling? what a bunch of bullshit. if a grown woman decides to terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason, who the hell are we to tell her she needs to think about it? how presumptuous and patronizing. and who is going to do this counseling? and counsel about what exactly?

if we are a free society, we all need to accept that others don't need to make us feel better about their choices, and we all get to manage our lives the way we see fit.

duxfemina:

counseling? what a bunch of bullshit. if a grown woman decides to terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason, who the hell are we to tell her she needs to think about it? how presumptuous and patronizing. and who is going to do this counseling? and counsel about what exactly?

Why is there so much hostility towards counseling? It seems like a very moderate proposal to me. I fail to see how sitting through an hour of counseling is such a burden if you are making a decision like having an abortion. If you get a ticket (in some states) you have to sit through traffic school. I don't see why it's such a big deal.

Counsel about what? how about effective use of contraception for starters? or the availability of adoption services? or the developmental stages of a fetus?

If you get a ticket (in some states) you have to sit through traffic school.

This implies getting an abortion is a crime, at some level, either at the level of murder or of speeding. Is it a crime or not?

bsharporflat:

If you get a ticket (in some states) you have to sit through traffic school.

This implies getting an abortion is a crime, at some level, either at the level of murder or of speeding. Is it a crime or not?

OK- maybe that's not a great analogy. How about this: in many states, if you want to declare bankruptcy, you have to sit through state mandated bankruptcy counseling.

The choice of bankruptcy is there. Nobody is taking that away (yet). But it is a personal failing. It is also a choice that has a negative impact on society. Likewise abortion, except for circumstances beyond the mother's control, is a personal failing, and a bad thing to do.

Your opinion is thoughtful and considerate and noted icemilk. But we gotta let the government decide.

bsharporflat:

Your opinion is thoughtful and considerate and noted icemilk. But we gotta let the government decide.

let the government give its stamp of approval that , because of MANDATED conseling( which is the antithesis of effective counseling), a woman has now given the appropriate amount of thoughtful deliberation ( and how to measure that?) to a decision about her own body? are y'all serious?

i am speechless...well not really, just exasperated... maybe we can have the government provide us all with counsel whenever we face a potentially life changing, consequence bearing decision....mandated counseling about buying a home, choosing a spouse,choosing a physician or lawyer, a college major, whether or not to start a family( i notice a woman only is expected to seek counsel if she chooses not to carry a pregnancy to term...but any nutcase can get knocked up of her own volition, no matter how ill prepared for motherhood she may be, and no one would dare suggest that she be forced into counseling...)care for our parents, it might not do any good or be at all feasible, but what the fuck...mandate away. it will make everyone feel so much better, and not really do anything but cost a lot...oh, wait, that is what the government does best, a big fat expensive nothing.

and who is going to do this couseling? and what will the exact purpose of it be? and what if a woman refuses? is she then forced to remain pregnant? does she get to keep that child? or has her lack of cooperation and desire for an abortion made her unfit?

have y'all thought this out at all?

duxfemina:

counseling? what a bunch of bullshit. if a grown woman decides to terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason, who the hell are we to tell her she needs to think about it? how presumptuous and patronizing. and who is going to do this counseling? and counsel about what exactly?

if we are a free society, we all need to accept that others don't need to make us feel better about their choices, and we all get to manage our lives the way we see fit.

I'm all for it. But are you willing to extend this to other personal decisions, like whether to smoke cigarettes or whether Vicodin is an appropriate remedy for my migraines?

If not, you've got little ground to stand on demanding personal autonomy in only this one specific life decision.

yes, i am...live your life and leave me out of it, and i will do likewise.

I think a frank discussion with a doctor is in order for any kind of surgical procedure, but I think that's something that medical ethics should regulate rather than the government. Forced counseling and a waiting period for women sounds slightly ridiculous to me. Besides the implications of blame or bad judgment on the part of the woman, it puts restrictions on who can afford to get an abortion; who can take time off of work or who has the money to travel to an abortion clinic twice.

I also can't say that I'm happy with Mississippi's laws. I don't think these laws are a middle ground for abortion. Both parents must agree to an abortion if the girl is under 18? And gosh, if you're going to take away the decision from the girl, it seems that the boy's parents may as well weigh in also. Aren't they just as responsible for the eventual upbringing of this baby? But in the end, I find myself asking the even more disturbing questions about choice than I would for women who are older. Are these parents going to be pregnant for her? Are they going to control her eating and exercise and exposure to chemicals during her pregnancy? Will the parents force her to raise the baby herself, or force her to give the baby up for adoption? And when this girl is 18, will she still have to be a parent or will she have the option to not to be a mother? By the time she can legally decide, the option is no longer available, since being a parent is not something one can "undecide". I also tend to think the consequences of choosing to be a parent are farther reaching than choosing not to continue a pregnancy, and that forcing a child to become a parent against her will is not something that anyone should endorse, least of all our government.

duxfemina:

...oh, wait, that is what the government does best, a big fat expensive nothing.

Yes, Yes YES! Now you are achieving wisdom! So much of..., no strike that. ALL of what the government does is to achieve good feelings in the minds of its constituents. That's it. What else could an elected government possibly do?

You accurately assess that the mandated counseling is not for the benefit of a woman considering abortion but for the pro-lifers who wish she wouldn't do it. Pro-lifers have political power and they are using it. I suggest you use the political power you wield to push the government in your own direction. Railing away about you being right won't eliminate abortion restrictions any more than pro-lifers railing away that they are right has eliminated abortion.

I believe there is always some type of counseling before an abortion. I had one 20 years ago and they sat me down and talked with me about my decision, made sure I was certain and so forth. It wasn't forced but probably necessary. Now take the great state of South Carolina which wants to force women to view ultrasounds of the tiny little beating hearts before any abortion. That is just cruel.

Yes, I'm glad we are talking. It's long overdue.

While I agree that some abortions are worse than others, I do not favor regulating them in any way. Regulations tend to discriminate against the poor. (Asking a woman to take two days off of work can cause her to lose her job, paying for counseling is prohibitive, etc) What I'd favor instead is a cash incentive - $100 rebate on your abortion if you sit through counseling. Of course, the money would have to come from an outside source, or the price of services would just go up.

Another reason I have trouble with regulation is that it takes time. Who decides if it really is rape, for instance? Does there have to be a conviction? That could take years. Do you have to get a doctor's opinion that the fetus is not viable? That discriminates against the poor woman again, as a rich one can just keep seeing doctors until she gets what she wants, and a poor one may be unable to see a doctor at all.

And I don't think counseling can work, because the parameters are too vague. What, exactly, is counseling supposed to do? Convince the woman not to have sex? Tell her about contracetive use? (except that the people who are opposed to abortion are also often opposed to contraception) Talk her out of this particular abortion by telling her how beautiful her baby could be? If you can come up with what exactly, counseling is supposed to do, I wold be more receptive.

I still think the best way to stop abortions is to give people access to contraception, and work on overcoming the feeling that sex is "bad". I've believed for a long time that the reason that perfectly reasonable people don't use contraception is that they feel in their hearts that it is wrong to plan for sex, that knowing that they are going to do it makes them "wicked".

my two cents.

Oooh, so true! I had a devout Christian girlfriend in college and, while she wanted sex badly, all the time, it was difficult to get her to agree to condoms. Birth control pills, impossible. Argh the frustrations of young love.....

I truly loved Patcelers observation that South Carolina's demand that women contemplating abortion must first view a sonogram of the beating heart of their potential offspring as being "cruel". Its been my observation over a long life that life itself is very cruel. Sending men to die in a war is cruel. Viable fetuses being killed is cruel. Grow up and get over it.