I hold Hitchens in high esteem but what is it with some of his blind spots with Israel? Lieberman is a SECULARIST - he goes after Arabs and Ultra-religious Jews equally. Hitchens should love this guy. He wants all Jews to into the army not just the non-religious ones. For him its not about religion but about ideology. Either you are for the state of Israel or you are not. If you are not then you need to be with the people that want to destroy that state. How many Americans would put up with a the huge latin population devoted to supporting a violent overthrow by Mexico?

Does not Hitchens see that "death to Arabs" chant as rhetoric? Lieberman should be viewed within the prism of decades of terrorist threats and activities form Arabs. Was not this movement inevitable? And dear Hitch and all the other wack-job lefties that irnically support terrorism - if its good enough for you then its good enough for the other side. You can't argue about tactics when you support forms of the same for your side. Not that hypocrites would see that point.

"Rhetoric"? Let's be clear here: the political future of Israel is now in the hands of its own home-grown neo-Nazis. I wish there was some word better than "irony" to describe just how disgusting that is.

I don't know if I'd call him a secularist, it might be more accurate to say fascist. I do agree that he appears to care little about religion except how it can buttress his idea of a powerful state to whom all owe allegiance and service. His desire to see everyone in the military, for example, does not have to do with concerns that the military does not have enough manpower (the Israeli military has not been complaining about too few enlistees) but rather his desire to use the military as a 'transforming' and 'converting' mechanism -- to ween people from their silly individualistic beliefs and make them into obedient servants of the state. Acutally, to paraphrase the Israeli general staff paraphrasing Americans "We don't want to be a social experiment." Breaking down the Ultra-Orthodx is not high on most Israeli's wish list.

"Either you are for the state of Israel or you are not." That is a simplistic and overly limited questions. More accurately you could say "Either you are for Avignor's state of Israel or you are not." Never mind differing views on what exactly the "state of Israel" should be. Bow to the Great Leader.

Fozzy - you are making a whole lot of unsubstantiated assumptions in your arguments.

Ummm, hello pot, meet kettle.

...that Lieberman is a jingoist, something I think Hitchens tends to decry. He's the equivalent of idiot Americans trying to form militias to "stem the tide of illegals" who are "invading" their territory.

If you think Hitchens supports terrorism, you're even more stupid than I'd first imagined. That's just stupid and dishonest.

What irony....:)

I'm not sure which is worse an idealogue or a religious fanatic. Historically they both have caused considerable mischief in the world.

Horus I didn't realize you imagines anything in the first place...you see people, writing quickly, can make errors. Did not mean to lump Hitchens in with terrorist supporters - should have been separate sentences. And your correlation wit American minute men is just wrong. LOL.

Most Israeli Arabs openly support Hamas and Hezbollah and refuse to be called Israeli. Unfortunately there is no real correlation - although soe of you wack jobs try to correlate this with Nazi atrocities. The difference here is that Jews in WWII weren't trying to to destroy and nation state or terrorizing anyone. Asking Israelis to support Israel in a rather crazy time is not asking too much or Fascistic - no matter how much you try to spin it. Its called logic.

Why don't you spend the same amount of time decrying the "fascistic". "jingoist" practices of islamic states? Oh yes...hypocrisy.

Sorry, just a mistake on your part, then. Not sure what the "correlation with American minute men" meant, but we'll skip over that.

I have no way of knowing whether you're right about Israeli Arabs. I don't correlate anything here with Naziism or the Holocaust, but certainly it's like apartheid in South Africa, where one population is being repressed and held down by another, militarily stronger one. "Support" for Israel can involve a lot of things - quite a number of Israelis would say it's patriotic to OPPOSE things like the operation against Gaza.

I could find a number of problems with Islamic states, but that's not what's being discussed here. Seems like you're evading the issue a bit when you try to do that.

"Most Israeli Arabs openly support Hamas and Hezbollah and refuse to be called Israeli."

I don't believe this. More importantly, even most Israeli media doesn't seem to support this. For example, what you say seems rather contrary to what Haaretz reports:

<link>

"A vast majority of Israeli Arabs would support a constitution that maintained Israel's status as a Jewish and democratic state while guaranteeing equal rights for minorities, according to a poll whose results were published on Sunday. "

That doesn't sound much like support for Hamas and Hezbollah.

Fozzy are you seriously suggesting that most Israeli Arabs do not support Hamas and Hezbollah over the Israeli government?

Interesting to me that anyone on your side of the issue can only avoid the "atrocities" and "jingoism" and "fascism" of Islamic states by stating - well it isn't what we are discussing here. Well I'm discussing it - and so sorry if that ruins your argument. Didn't really know that there were rules on what we can bring up. I will try and keep out anything that makes your argument look hypocritical from now on. My bad.

But I hope you understand why most Americans have a hard time seeing through that hypocrisy when supporting Israel.

Interesting to me that anyone on your side of the issue can only avoid the "atrocities" and "jingoism" and "fascism" of Islamic states by stating - well it isn't what we are discussing here. Well I'm discussing it - and so sorry if that ruins your argument.

That's OK ThirdMan. it's a familiar response from the Israeli shills. Every time the light is shone on Israel, out you come like cockroaches, and bleet about Darfur and Sudan etc. It doesn't ruin anyone's argument, it's just very boring.

Fascinating question you pose.

"Does not Hitchens see that "death to Arabs" chant as rhetoric? "

Do you not see that "death to Israel" chant as rhetoric?

Do you not see that "death to America" chant as rhetoric?

Wouldn't it be nice to get past the rhetoric?