I find 'coruscations' to be the most grating of the several annoying (and inapt, to my mind's eye and EAR.) But I can see that interpretation of her deliberately using those words & phrases, to stretch and challenge the reader. I'm okay with that) This *has* been a good discussion, one of the best in ages. As to august's supposition about the nature of the "suburb" and/or the homunculus-- did you see Bratsche had a similar place-based, not personal memory-person-based, interpretation of those lines, earlier today? (His Top Post) I don't like the poem as much as Ted does but I'm with him, fully, on the darkness & coldness of this poem. (In contrast, pls. see, when you can, the two other poems by her that I posted earlier) It is good, indeed, to see a real discussion going on and I'm so glad that Mark Haag asked the question he did about 'orient." Until his thread developed, I was confounded, fully, by that weird line. I'm not sure I like, at this point in my life perhaps?, to have to consult the dictionary or Google quite THIS much, just to appreciate a poem. Hmmm?
And I'm still not on-board with any appreciation for the cobalt lockbox, or whatever the noun is (tired now, sorry) -- that line made me feel as if I, the reader, AND the poem was in prison, frankly.

Check my reply to Mark. I know a thing or five zillion about jewelry -- so orient I understood, especially as it modified coruscations.

Angel

Hi folks,

This has been quite an interesting debate, and over several rereadings and absorption of others' thoughts am far from my original interpretation, which is good. I'd like to share my new interpretation, if I had time, but I don't. Instead, I'd like to touch on the homonulus debate a little further. To muddle the homunculus issue some more, I have my Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy open and it says, "(from Latin, 'little man'), a miniature adult held to inhait the brain (or some other organ) and initiates all the commands to the muscles." This is how I first encountered the concept (in a philosophy of mind class) several years ago.

While I do not necessarily discard the connotations associated with preformation (after all its clear Spaar likes to overlay her imagery with multiple meanings so that the constellations simultaneously evoke the mother/daughter relationship and her mother's mind, etc., I still think this is the primary meaning (little guy in the mind) that the poet had in mind. To straighten out the problems that I had earlier, I now think the term refers directly back to the discarded leeks and husks that are around the picnic table. In this interpreation, the mother's mind goes back to the suburbs seeking to find something concrete to reorient itself (good work on orient everyone, I think here is a clear case where the poet is invoking both meanings simultaneously), but finds an empty ruin, picnic table and leftovers from lunch, but not the lunch itself. Instead of finding a memory that the mind can inhabit, it just finds fragments of that memory and cannot reconstitute them into a sensible image. In fact, the ruins simply reevoke the ruined mind of the mother, a picnic table- mute dead matter and decaying food scraps. Instead of activating the mind, the image actually points to the mind's own ruined state-- discarded husks at the edge of the picinic table are like a homonculus on the edge of the mind- somehting meant to animate the mind but standing outside and unable to do so.

Cheers.

Thank you slipped. v. (Btw, is voussoir a word on its own or are you playing around with "you" and "night?" I know, I could look it up, mais ...) MORE food for thought here, wow! About the homunculus, I'll go look at the poem one more time w. that interp.in mind -- did you see what Bratsche wrote about the referents in his top post yesterday, by any chance? I found that interp. intriguing & helpful. It's just so good to have a meaty discussion for a change, and a poem which offers us the chance to dissect in this way & to this degree of detail. Also, I put up two more poems by this poet yesterday -- have you seen those? They are quite different from this one -- seemingly lighter, at first reading. O.T. a philosophy of mind course sounds quite fascinating -- who did you read? Anyone contemporary or more like North Whitehead & from that era? And where did you study, if we may ask. Glad you are here, s.v. (If I may)

Will do (god, it's a huge thread by now) -- the meanings work better for me now ref. "orient coruscations" but I still can't STAND the sound of it. It's such an awkwad-sounding phrase as are two or so of the others. You put a lot of energy into this discussion, which I appreciate. Good luck w. your website -- will we in the apparent "Salon de Refuses" be allowed to read it or will it be avail. to an invited-only audience as well, eh? :-) They are a lot of work, so I wish you well with it, AA.

Did not care for the sound of this poem myself.

Building the website has been a blast. I have the online coffeehouse working, and it's the most complicated part. It's been a lot of fun, and maintenance should only adding and removing poems, readings and slideshows, which is fairly simple.

When I publish it to the Web, anyone will be able to read it and listen to readings. However, those who perform readings on the site will be invitation-only because I have no intention of letting it turn into a war zone.

I am not activating anything that would allow comments to be made on the site, so any conversation would have to be done here or elsewhere. Readers won't be subjected to negativity on the site. There will be no email links on the site.

This has been a pet project for some time, and I decided to add an online coffeehouse for readings.

Angel

i've ever read on PoemsFray.

thanks so much to all who have participated. it's been an entirely edifying read.

waltz

Thanks, waltz! I'm looking forward to the OPP tomorrow.

Angel

In medieval medical theory, the "homunculus" was the term used for the genitive principle believed to exist in male sperm.

Take, for example, this image. I thought, since she was describing the "winter garden" from whence she came, that she might have been tapping into that back-history of the word.

Not sure what it adds or subtracts to the interpretation... but probably worth noting.

Yet another interesting element to add to the many angles of this remarkable poem. (Although I didn't realise my poem would receive a sperm donation.)

Thanks for dropping in, Geoff. And thanks for the checkmark, also. It's so great when we have a poem this fascinating to dissect, and this one really brought out the best in all of us, I think. Lots of great comments all over the board and earnest discussion.

I will be announcing my new website on PFray on Monday. I'm having it proofed over the weekend, and then I'll launch it.

I hope you'll give it a look sometime.

Thanks again for dropping by my thread.

Angel

Angel;

'bout damn time they gave a blue check to some one who has deserved it for too long. This last poem was a good stir, good to see, properly kick-started by your post. Vrooom!

Out here.

Thanks, Doug, and congrats to you, too.

Angel

A woinderful analysis of the poem and an even better discussion and thread.

TLG

d;-)

I'd be happy to take a look at your site, though I encourage you to shoot me an email. I don't have the opportunity to see nearly so much as I'd like, and I can't guarantee I'd notice the announcement.

It may be a function of my own brain scramble... I've been logging nearly 50 hr. weeks (i.e., volunteering) since the Fray re-launch, and it's hard processing so much random information so quickly... but, my own take on this week's poem more closely matched yours than the school which saw it as a meditation on a mother's senility.

To me, the imagery spoke of a paradox - of the author as a shoot sprung forth from a barren earth. The Ursa constellations (which never set from the night sky) locked into the sky, the parks and benches which don't disappear... as the suburb of one's youth turns into a modern exurb with six-lane highways and light industry. My experience of my own childhood is vaguely like what I thought the author was getting at - monuments stripped of context without ever being moved in place. And, that the memory of the childhood home - of the cold and angry mother likewise fixed in place but denuded of content - fit this theme (no similar issues with my parents).

It seems like the title does suggest it could be a meditation about Alzheimer's and the cracked and broken brains of advancing age... a lot of posters made excellent cases for such a reading. But, if that is what the author intended, it would make me kind of sad. Such a reading reduces the poem, for me, to a kind of lyrical after-school special when I found it a powerful meditation on growing away from one's roots, and discovering one's identity in the lost hairs entangled on an angry mother's comb.

It seems like the title does suggest it could be a meditation about Alzheimer's and the cracked and broken brains of advancing age... a lot of posters made excellent cases for such a reading. But, if that is what the author intended, it would make me kind of sad. Such a reading reduces the poem, for me, to a kind of lyrical after-school special

This is also how I felt. I felt a raw emotion in this poem that had begat strength in this daughter who had grown beyond. I found that quite powerful. I think we can give this poet credit for avoiding the maudlin background piano music of the after school special on Lifetime.

Also the "suburb turning into the modern exurb" -- that is congruent with my own thoughts, as well. As for the title, I viewed "I consider my mother's mind" to mean almost -- "what were you thinking to have allowed a child to grow up this way, or what caused you to be so cold?"

Thanks for adding this to the thread, Geoff. I know you are busy -- I do those 50 hour weeks, too -- more, if you count what I do when I get home. So I know you don't have time to comment often. I'll send you an email when the site goes up. Would I need any kind of special permission to link it to PFray for anyone who might stumble across it and be interested?

Angel