Its rather sad to say, but what young feminists don't seem to get IS the pervasiveness of sexism that exists among men. Just as with racism, society and men in particular, have learned to constrain their expression of this but when it is anonymous or an environment in which men feel they won't pay a price for their sexism (such as an all male group), the sexism rears its head. I spent the weekend sailboat racing with a crew of 4 other men and 2 women.

Now sailing is still primarily a male sport - though women have done extraordinarily well in it - especially in the long endurance races that test ones stamina and fortitude. Yet get into an anonymous forum of sailors and you will see sexual objectification all over the place. And this weekend confirmed it from another perspective. 3 of the men in the crew were firefighters as was one of the women. Someone complimented her on not complaining and her response was

"I've learned not to complain about anything. Working at a firestation, if I complain, it just gets dismissed as 'Its the GIRL Whining'"

Actually I want to modify my assertion about the young pole-grinding feministas not being aware of mens sexism. I think that at a sub-conscious level they ARE aware of it. But they also have seen the price that their mothers have paid for trying to fight it.

We as human beings all tend to take the easiest path we can see. The primary difference between those that take a more challenging path, is that they can see a broader scope, and see the true price that the less challenging path exacts.

This applies to the GirlZ-gone-wild neo-feministas as well as to anyone else. The Courtney Martin's of the world may well see the cost of such behaviour, as well as the Robin Morgan's can. Sadly MOST of the younger women cannot. They see their sexuality as a way of controlling or manipulating the sexist power of the men around them. Its the path that seems the easiest within the scope of their horizon. Afterall, if you can get your dinner paid for by wearing revealing clothing - as opposed to the hassle of calling the guy on it for letching - isn't that the easier path?

What they don't see is that in taking this path of hyper-sexualization, they are playing to the exact stereotypes that men impose on women: flightly, emotional creatures from the shopping planet more obsessed with material goods and looks than with doing something interesting.

Young women should listen to more gangsta rap. It would give them insight into the male psyche that they really are trying to avoid looking at.

And so too with their decision to largely support Obama over HRC. HRC is a flawed candidate. She essentially throws it into the faces of GIRLZ POWER how hard it really still is for a woman to succeed in any area where men have a stronghold. HRC demonstrates the hard work that goes into a woman succeeding that has not had the privileged life of Paris Hilton, or the empty luck of Britteny Spears (packaged by men for young men, and sold by men). And hard work is scary.

Deg:

Pretty much everyone is discriminatory to everyone else. This seems to be part of human nature. I'm sure it had a useful purpose at some point.

Are you claiming that when women get together they don't complain about, belittle, disparage and objectify men? Your delusional if you think this way.

And yes, men objectify women. They are attracted to and want to have sex with them. This is not bad unless they actually go out and force themselves on women. The old-guard feminist movement has a lot to answer for in criminalizing sex. The idea that all intercourse is rape and other feminist abominations are the truly sick position.

What "old" feminists like yourself don't see is that the dogma you have held onto so tightly for the last 40 years was either never true or is no longer true. I know, like an old warrior, you don't know how to hang up your sword, and when you're a feminist clipper everything looks like a hangnail, but that doesn't make your version of reality true.

The greatest testament to how far women have come in society is that young women feel empowered to vote for a candidate based on merit and not on gender.

Feminist talks about reality for members of the sex caste, and the Voice of Patriarchy tells him it's all in his head.

Dawn:

This argument, if you can call it one, is all you can really hold on to. "It's there but you don't see it". As I've written before, you could just as easily be discussing alien abduction or the Loch Ness monster.

If you used this sort of thinking in all aspects of your life you would probably be locked up for suffering paranoid delusions. My goodness, you capitalize V and P as if this is some real entity.

This whole sex caste business is manipulative magic. As Bill Maher said on his show recently, sure there are some truly oppressed women in this world (as there are oppressed men), but many, like Mr. Spitzer's F-buddy, would rather not work 40 hours a week cooking chicken at KFC when they can make as much in 10 minutes blowing Colonel Sanders.

Hillary is a viable candidate. That is not in doubt. The idea that she MUST win or it is the work of a vast V of P conspiracy is just stupid.

Let's pretend that we are on the board of directors of a large company looking to hire a CEO profits are down because previous CEOs made bad decisions about company policy. As just one person on the board of directors you are allowed to ask the potential candidate questions that would reveal pertinent information about his/her plans to turn the company around.

Candidate 1 steps to the podium he is highly experienced having given many years of dedicated service to the company. He's able to work well with others and has had a great deal of time to contemplate ways of improving the company's overall and long term well being.

Candidate 2 steps to the podium she is highly educated, intelligent and confident. She's been with the company 5 years. She hands the board her husband's resume (her husband having been one of the previous CEOs of the company) and very confidently begins to profess that she has his experience being a CEO by osmosis and you must hire her because she is a woman and it would really be against everything she stands for if you didn't. She begins to berate the other potentials as both inexperienced and too experienced. She hums the National Anthem and I Am Woman simultaneously chugging a beer and downs a shot of whiskey.

Candidate 3 although admittedly having only 1 year experience with the company, touts a more recent education and successful service to other organizations but can't bowl.

What are you going to do?

FYI, not that I am a fireman or am intimately familiar with the sexual dynamics of a firehouse, but I do know that like police services and military units, fire services attract far more their share of aggressive males, both sexually aggressive and the general chest pounding behaviour. Same goes for gangsta rap, fo' shizzen.

Assuming there is rampant sexism amongst males because of this example is hasty, and while some have posted here that most men are attracted to women (true) and want to have sex with them (true, but in a general sense rather than involving any specific planning, in most cases), to generalize that men look down upon women is simply wrong, assuming we are referring to North American society.

Question for Candidate 1: You've been a well respected member of Former CEOs' working groups and supported many Former CEOs' policies. Clearly, these have resulted in bad press and poor earnings. What do you bring to the table now to change this?

Generally agree on Candidate 2 and 3, although only in a very vague way.

swing low

I meant it how you said it (regarding wanting to have sex). My main point is that there is really nothing wrong with that. It isn't meant to be demeaning. This is also not the only way normal men perceive and interact with women, although that is the radical feminist assertion.

something related to narcissism that women get to deal with, and I think that contrary to Ghost's assertion, it does serve to "divide the tribe". Instead of being related to gender per se, it's more related to "people who resemble me", and I think it's why there are not only single gender organizations (as you pointed out), but also single ethnicity organizations (albeit, a lot less of them now). People who are pathologically narcissistic tend to grant human rights only to those who share certain, valued attributes.

So I do think there's (still) a social trend for men to look down on women, that is actually part of a larger trend of people who are narcissistic to look down on people who don't resemble them. Because if there's one thing a narcissist hates and fears, it's potent invalidation, and if there's one power women retain even in a patriarchal society, it's the ability to emasculate. Demeaning women mitigates this threat.

But I wouldn't expect you to be all that familiar with this - you're far too decent a human being.

We do socialize men to be narcissistic (to maintain a fear-masking front) that's related to traditional gender roles (being the breadwinner). Women get socialized in somewhat different ways (in a general sense).

I do realize my point of view may be skewed about gender roles and even race issues. The Champ has earned more $$ than me for, well, ever, and this sits just fine with me, in terms of it not creating a need in me to "dominate" her. If that behaviour is precipitated it is only because of a good-natured sense of competition, one that I will almost surely lose even more so as out careers progress.

I like to compare the two points of view: men who look at women as generally inferior and to be controlled and women who look at men as socially retarded nymphomaniacs. I don't know why, I just get a kick out of the different natures of the gender stereotyping.

"This applies to the GirlZ-gone-wild neo-feministas as well as to anyone else. The Courtney Martin's of the world may well see the cost of such behaviour, as well as the Robin Morgan's can. Sadly MOST of the younger women cannot. They see their sexuality as a way of controlling or manipulating the sexist power of the men around them. Its the path that seems the easiest within the scope of their horizon."

I think there is some truth to that. But your comment belies the inherent...trickiness...of feminism. In the above quote you seem to be insinuating that there is a correct (proper?) way for young women to use their sexuality. What is the difference between that and a man telling a woman that if she doesn't have sex with him he'll break up with her? Both are essentially saying "use your body the way I'm telling you to". But no one likes to be told that. I suspect part of the hyper-sexualization of young women really is a kind of "F#$k you, I won't do what you tell me" to older feminists. Until older feminists figure out a way to talk to younger ones without acting as their betters there isn't much hope.

Fine work, and an accurate depiction of a very sad phenomenon. This is a very incisive look at a widespread social pathology in the U.S. that very few posters -- or male Americans -- are willing to take on or even, consider. Thank you for this post.

So Deg, what you're saying is that "all men are sexists..." And everyone's ok with this....Cool!

Men will always think women can't drive or play sports. Women will always think men are immature and can't clean/properly change a diaper/find anything around the house. Men channel surf, women look at the TV Guide. Men and women are NOT the same. They deserve equal respect and equal pay for equal work, sure, but they ARE different. And that is the beauty of it.

I think that is what some older feminists can't accept that younger ones can. I don't feel the need to proclaim I can do everything my husband can do exactly the same. He is bigger than me and stronger than me, facts are facts. But I am just as smart (he would say smarter), I am just as capable of unclogging a toilet, and I tend to be the more patient parent. He looks to me for advice, he respects me, and yes teases me about my driving. I wouldn't have it any other way. And THANK GOD he "objectifies" me, cause if he ever stopped wanting to have sex with me I doubt we would remain married.

great post Jen...for a chick :)